Why Dubstep isn't Dubstep

[Navron]

Now before you go thinking this is another, "But guiz, Skrillex izn dubsteps!!!" kind of thread, allow me to clarify.

Most people consider dubstep to be one of two things. Either it's an introspective, easy listening experience, or the complete opposite. Without going into specifics about bpm, history, etc, I'd rather focus on the main thing that gets everybody heated these days:

The distorted, modulated bass.

Nobody's a stranger to it. Most genres today have hopped on the wubwub bandwagon, including classical, jazz, reggae, electro, house, dubstep, metal, etc.

Instead of trying to classify everything with a modulated bass into a specific genre, people should be looking at it as a new instrument.

Some of you have probably heard the comparison to metal, which was branded as loud, obnoxious, and lacks musicality during its early years. People say the very same thing about the modulated bass in electronic music.

Is it possible that electronic artists don't necessarily want their music in a club? Is it possible they want to throw a headbanging concert with a mosh pit instead, without sampling or creating a synthetic distorted guitar?

Note, there are some things about these heavy electronic songs that do get very trite (ex. Somebody saying, "drop the bass," but even that has a comparison to the metal world. Ever hear a metal song where the singer says, "Break it down!" before the instrumentation drops into a half-time section with complicated rhythms, and heavy strumming? It's about just as trite.

So what do you think? I'm actually surprised a lot of metal vs dubstep discussions don't really point out the similarities, and instead devolve into acoustic vs electronic flame fests. Am I saying dubstep and metal sound the same? Nope, far from it. What I am saying is you have similar elements. They're both heavy, they're both loud, and they both involve involve some kind of half-time drop/break that's meant to get people violent and thrashing.

[topitmunkeydog]

I have this friend who claims he looooveees dubstep music, although he only listens to Skrillex and The Prodigy (that's not even dubstep.) But yeah, he is one of those people who says that EVERYTHING with some sort of a bass in it is dubstep. I was listening to Caravan Palace, an electro swing band, and he was like oh hey that's dubstep.

And here's some of the most relaxing dubstep I've ever heard.

Dubstep doesn't have to be loud and heavy. Unless this song is not dubstep, in which I apologize because I am bad at genres.

[GumsOfGabby]

What is the point of this thread? "Why dubstep isn't dubstep"? Most people on this forum (producers) know that a modulated bass does not define a track's genre...And then this completely irrelevant talk about comparing metal to dubstep? I don't get it. Is there anything to actually discuss here or are we trying to start another great big flame war?

[ph00tbag]

Dubstep is the new Techno.

[itroitnyah]

I don't really get what you're trying to say with this thread. Are you just trying to say that dubstep and metal are similar to each other?

[CaptainFluffatun]

Holy shit yes Navron I've been making the metal-dubstep analogy for a while. Finally someone who understands.

[Raddons]

Yeah, I like both genres and I find the similarities. I try to do that to build myself as a musician, to relate all types of music to a few core elements. Dubstep and Metal share exactly what you pointed out. I wish people would get this so we would have lots less arguing and just enjoy the music together.

[the4thImpulse]

And here I thought that this was all fairly common knowledge, at least in the producing communities.

[Navron]

I don't really get what you're trying to say with this thread. Are you just trying to say that dubstep and metal are similar to each other?

Not saying the genres are similar, but rather the instrumentation. That distorted guitars and heavy modulated basses can both be used in nearly every genre.

A heavy modulated bass is to the electronic world as a heavily distorted guitar is to the live music world.

Reason for the thread? I personally don't agree with the moving idea that brosteppy basses are simply a fad that will die out soon in the electronic world. Electronic producers have found a means of appealing to the headbanging crowd, without necessarily having to copy the exact sound of a distorted guitar.

Even vowel basses (often another example of overused brostep sounds) are fairly common in the heavy rock world:


And what really gave me the idea for this thread was this interview with Jeff Abel (Excision), who has some of the heaviest songs in existence (pun intended):

[XXDarkShadow79XX]

Heh, Excision ain't that much. He's great, but he's far from the heaviest. Maybe I'll remake the "heaviest drops" thread sometime...

Anyways, for the whole dubstep/metal thing, I think its kinda dumb. From what I see, dubstep has influenced electronic music way more than metal has with acoustic music. If you ask me, metal is kind of holed up in its own corner, silently (well, SOMETIMES silently) cursing out the other genres of music. Dubstep has really pushed the boundaries of what "hard" bass music can be, in EVERY electronic genre.

alsodubstepiswaymorehardcorethanmetal

[colortwelve]

While I get the point of the original post, it seems to refer more to the top end of dubstep's bass, which wasn't a part of the first dubstep records. Case in point:



I challenge someone to say that that lacks musicality. It's not about distortion, it's about actual bass, the rumbling, the part that makes listening to it a more physical experience than other genres. I do appreciate the creative sound design employed by the likes of Excision and Kill the Noise, but they just added to it, just like Death added the now ubiquitous death-growl to the genre of metal.

As for drawing the lines between genres in EDM, so we can actually talk about what 'dubstep' is and how it's affected the other subgenres, this is why I use the term bass music. Because drum and bass was around for years before dubstep, and the altered tempo of dubstep and the dark atmosphere it provided was really what kicked off dubstep's aesthetic. There's a lot of really arbitrary usage of new subgenre labels in EDM... Talking about bass music alleviates a bit of that.

[itroitnyah]

Yeah, they're pretty similar in instrumentation I guess, but usually dubstep involves people saying "drop the bass" into a microphone instead of yelling obscenities in the loudest deepest voice they can manage while the drummer pounds the kick and snare as fast as he can. Or at least I've never really heard dubstep where that was the main focus of it.

[ghelded_kultz]

As plenty of people have mentioned, dubstep has been compared to metal a lot, especially by music magazines (I'm pretty sure I've heard it more than any other comparison, including dubstep vs house). Which is why Skrillex was Spin's #100 guitarist on their Top guitarists of all time list. (It was funny because they didn't know he plays guitar and they might not have known that he was originally in a post-hardcore/metalcore band).

And as far as the comments about whether or not dubstep or metal is more influential as a whole, it's too soon to make a judgement. But I agree that that bass is here to stay.

Or at least I've never really heard dubstep where that was the main focus of it

Obscentities or bass drops? Because a lot of the dubstep (well bro-step) songs I've heard seem to have the drop as the main focus. (Just like those songs with sweet riffs and not much else going for them).

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

You mean something can have a modulated bass and NOT be Dubstep?

HOLY SHIT

[ghelded_kultz]

Note, there are some things about these heavy electronic songs that do get very trite (ex. Somebody saying, "drop the bass," but even that has a comparison to the metal world. Ever hear a metal song where the singer says, "Break it down!" before the instrumentation drops into a half-time section with complicated rhythms, and heavy strumming? It's about just as trite.

So what do you think? I'm actually surprised a lot of metal vs dubstep discussions don't really point out the similarities, and instead devolve into acoustic vs electronic flame fests. Am I saying dubstep and metal sound the same? Nope, far from it. What I am saying is you have similar elements. They're both heavy, they're both loud, and they both involve involve some kind of half-time drop/break that's meant to get people violent and thrashing.

I'm just going to point out now that what you are talking about now is not Heavy Metal, it's Metalcore. Yes, Metalcore is a form of Heavy Metal, but it has it's own features. The breakdown is Metalcore is not a common feature in Heavy Metal, it was taken from Hardcore Punk . It's sort of funny that you bring this up, because as the as other Kult said, Skrillex's roots are in Post-Hardcore/Metalcore, not EDM. Also, I've never heard some one actually say "Break it down" in a Metalcore song, but I'm sure it happens. The similarities between the genres are not just a coincidence.

Heh, Excision ain't that much. He's great, but he's far from the heaviest. Maybe I'll remake the "heaviest drops" thread sometime...

Anyways, for the whole dubstep/metal thing, I think its kinda dumb. From what I see, dubstep has influenced electronic music way more than metal has with acoustic music. If you ask me, metal is kind of holed up in its own corner, silently (well, SOMETIMES silently) cursing out the other genres of music. Dubstep has really pushed the boundaries of what "hard" bass music can be, in EVERY electronic genre.

alsodubstepiswaymorehardcorethanmetal

Okay, kid, shut up because you don't know what you are talking about. If Heavy Metal exist didn't exist than neither would Dubstep as you know it. Dubstep is much older than the new stuff and it never got really popular, but artists like Skrillex created Brostep by combining Dubstep with elements from Heavy Metal, turning the subsonic bass into a mid-range riff like the more melodic riffs in Heavy Metal. The end result was more agressive than ever, and that is what got super popular. Now that's just looking at Metal's influence on Dubstep, it's influence on Popular Music is a lot larger than that, and it's even incorporated into Art Music and such at times. Also, only EDM fans would consider Metal to be Acoustic Music, Metal is Rock, and it's influence on Rock as a whole is undeniable. We still have yet to see if Dubstep will continue to leave a massive legacy like Heavy Metal has, or if it's just a passing fad that will die like Skiffle Ska Punk. (Oh, and Dubstep isn't influential on ALL electronic music, just the current wave of EDM, there is still stuff like Hip-Hop, Industrial and Ambient, and Metal spends more time cursing it's own subgenres than cursing other genres, it's really annoying).

Yeah, they're pretty similar in instrumentation I guess, but usually dubstep involves people saying "drop the bass" into a microphone instead of yelling obscenities in the loudest deepest voice they can manage while the drummer pounds the kick and snare as fast as he can. Or at least I've never really heard dubstep where that was the main focus of it.

Funny you say that because one 1. This is just my experience and I'm obviously biased, but I've heard a lot higher concentration of obscenities in EDM than Metal, that might just be due to the low amount of lyrics in EDM, but if you compare Metal with R&B and Hip-Hop (not that they're EDM or anything) it's pretty clear the Metal is a lot "cleaner", for example if you look at Iron Maiden's 30 year and 15 studio album discography you will find like three songs with any swearing whatsoever, and 2. the early metal singers were known for how high they could sing and their sweeping tenors, this song

is known for having one of the highest recorded notes sung by a male, so it's a bit ironic that Metal is now associated with low voices.

Anyway, for the actual discussion, I agree there is a definite similarities between Dubstep and Heavy Metal as Heavy Metal was a notable (but certainly not the largest) influence on the development of the current wave of Dubstep, but they are still very different. Heavy Metal is ultimately rooted in Rock while Dubstep is rooted in EDM, their song structures are completely different. Also, even the agressive riffs between the two are distinct. I find the guitar riffs in Metal to be pleasant, powerful, but still pleasant, while the bass riffs in Dubstep are usually just irritating to me. I agree that Dubstep is more brutal than Metal in that aspect, but I don't listen to Metal because I want my ears to be raped. If you like Dubstep that's fine, but with some exceptions I don't.

Anyway, let's have some Nu-Metalstep/Dub-Nu-Metal (is the Nu needed?):



Korn is a guilty pleasure of mine, I might buy this controversial album eventually. I've never found Skrillex to be that bad either.

-Soft D. String DeHooves

[Lying Pink]

If Heavy Metal exist didn't exist than neither would Dubstep as you know it.[...] We still have yet to see if Dubstep will continue to leave a massive legacy like Heavy Metal has, or if it's just a passing fad that will die like Skiffle.

I'm really interested to see if dubstep will start to fed back into hard rock/metal -- there are always metal groups who are open to incorporating different sounds and hybridising, and there've been the odd few forays into metal/dubstep (like this one) but metal traditionalists have an established trend towards puritanism and ridicule when it comes to bands/genres that bring new elements into the mix. We'll see.

[ghelded_kultz]

If Heavy Metal exist didn't exist than neither would Dubstep as you know it.[...] We still have yet to see if Dubstep will continue to leave a massive legacy like Heavy Metal has, or if it's just a passing fad that will die like Skiffle.

I'm really interested to see if dubstep will start to fed back into hard rock/metal -- there are always metal groups who are open to incorporating different sounds and hybridising, and there've been the odd few forays into metal/dubstep (like this one) but metal traditionalists have an established trend towards puritanism and ridicule when it comes to bands/genres that bring new elements into the mix. We'll see.

Nu Metal pioneer Korn has released an entire album directly fusing Dubstep and Metal, the song in the PMV I posted was from that. Celldweller also released an album that took influence from the current wave of EDM, but I can't think of any other major metal artists who have fused them, and those two can hardly be considered traditionalists. I think there is also quite a few Dubstep/Metal fusions here in the Brony community. If anything we should look for either a. new Industrial Metal bands to get popular that take use dubstep b. established Electricore bands like Attack Attack! to experiment with it or c. a side project of a single band member in an established band will work with it, that's happened a few times. I don't think other metal artists are likely to incorporate it or get popular from it for one reason or another, but we'll see.

-Soft D. String DeHooves

[ExoBassTix]

Dubstep doesn't have to be loud and heavy. Unless this song is not dubstep, in which I apologize because I am bad at genres.

Sounds like you're leaning towards Chillstep (YAY I LOVE CHILLSTEP!).

Jeff Abel (Excision), who has some of the heaviest songs in existence

You make me laugh.

alsodubstepiswaymorehardcorethanmetal

Actually that's not true. Some people just see Dubstep as more hardcore than Metal, and some people see Metal as more hardcore than Dubstep. So it's based on opinion, not on fact, so "is" is false.

And if you're of the mindset that the most hardcore music is the best, why not just listen to gabber,terrrcore and all the other *cores. Its way heavier than dubstep will ever be.

THAAAAANK YOU!!! Though Gabber isn't that heavy in my opinion (see that, Dark Shadow?). Depends on what kind of Gabber you're talking about. Most Oldskull for example doesn't deal that much of an impact in my opinion.

While I get the point of the original post, it seems to refer more to the top end of dubstep's bass, which wasn't a part of the first dubstep records. Case in point:

Embed-proof link to YouTube

I challenge someone to say that that lacks musicality. It's not about distortion, it's about actual bass, the rumbling, the part that makes listening to it a more physical experience than other genres. I do appreciate the creative sound design employed by the likes of Excision and Kill the Noise, but they just added to it, just like Death added the now ubiquitous death-growl to the genre of metal.

This is actually very important. Because as said, most of the time people (who don't necessarily know what they're talking of) think of Dubstep as 140BPM music with breakbeats and basslines that wub and wobble all over the place. But listen to James Blake's "Limit To Your Love" and you'll be convinced otherwise.

the one problem that dubstep has that metal didn't have (to anywhere near the degree) is the fact that any kid and his pos laptop can make a dubstep track. Because of this, anybody who wants to make dubstep can and because of that, the "dubstep" genre is flooded with amateur artists who simply aren't musically skilled enough to make it musical. This clouds up the entire perspective of what is "good" dubstep and what is just kinda crappy.
There are some who can do it REALLY well, though.

This.

it's a bit ironic that Metal is now associated with low voices.

Yes, I can relate to that. Most people that don't know what they're talking of will think of the, (what I call them), darker sub-genres of Heavy Metal (this isn't worded correctly) that include low/deep and sustained vocals, grunts, (pig-)squeals (they are sooo funny xD ), etc.
Even then them vocals can be high, but most of the time people call this low, and because they don't know how it works, they associate Metal directly with low voices.


Aaand a bit off-topic, but a metalhead friend of mine and me are going to work on a New Rave project.

[colortwelve]

I'm actually surprised a lot of metal vs dubstep discussions don't really point out the similarities, and instead devolve into acoustic vs electronic flame fests.

any kid and his pos laptop can make a dubstep track.

Now I'd like to kindly ask you to stop right there, my good man

[XXDarkShadow79XX]

Whoah, whoah, lets slow things down here. I love the crap out of metal, and I was listening to it WAY before I even knew dubstep existed, so you can't say I don't listen to it. What I meant to say with the whole "influence" thing was that ever since dubstep came around, electronic music as a whole has changed. Glitch hop, electro house, dnb, and even breakbeat have all adopted its modern, dirty sound. Think about what metal has done to acoustic music. If we're using the guitar/dirty bass analogy, there weren't really that many changes in the acoustic music scene. Do you hear distorted guitars in [most] jazz, blues, country, or folk music? Come to think of it, metal didnt even invent the distorted guitar. It was really straight up rock that made it up.

If you ask me, the whole dubstep is to electronic as metal is to acoustic analogy is false. I think HARDSTYLE is a much better comparison. They both spawn many styles and sub genres, but only within themselves, only occasionally connecting with other genres.

Also the whole "dubstep is more hardcore than metal" thug was just trollbait. It clearly worked. XD

[Navron]

the one problem that dubstep has that metal didn't have (to anywhere near the degree) is the fact that any kid and his pos laptop can make a dubstep track. Because of this, anybody who wants to make dubstep can and because of that, the "dubstep" genre is flooded with amateur artists who simply aren't musically skilled enough to make it musical.

It's easier for kids to pirate a music program and Massive than to steal a real guitar, so there's naturally going to be more crapstep flooded on YouTube.

Don't hold metal to such a higher degree though. You're forgetting the "metal kiddies," that do nothing but hammer power chords in drop C and scream vocals whilst having voice cracks due to the sudden onset of puberty. You just don't see them as much because most of them don't have the equipment available to record and upload themselves, but they're out there, lurking your nearby talent shows.

[ghelded_kultz]

Whoah, whoah, lets slow things down here. I love the crap out of metal, and I was listening to it WAY before I even knew dubstep existed, so you can't say I don't listen to it. What I meant to say with the whole "influence" thing was that ever since dubstep came around, electronic music as a whole has changed. Glitch hop, electro house, dnb, and even breakbeat have all adopted its modern, dirty sound. Think about what metal has done to acoustic music. If we're using the guitar/dirty bass analogy, there weren't really that many changes in the acoustic music scene. Do you hear distorted guitars in [most] jazz, blues, country, or folk music? Come to think of it, metal didnt even invent the distorted guitar. It was really straight up rock that made it up.

If you ask me, the whole dubstep is to electronic as metal is to acoustic analogy is false. I think HARDSTYLE is a much better comparison. They both spawn many styles and sub genres, but only within themselves, only occasionally connecting with other genres.

Also the whole "dubstep is more hardcore than metal" thug was just trollbait. It clearly worked. XD

Just because you listen to Metal doesn't mean you know what you are talking about. Sure, I don't know everything and am probably spewing a fair amount of nonsense, but I know enough to realized that you are spewing a degree of BS. Yeah, Metal is mostly self contained, but it's not really any more self-contained than EDM is, and it's influence has seeped outside the realm of Rock as I gave with the Brostep example. Influence isn't an easy thing to measure, so the only things were it's easy to deduce a clear Metal influence is when it is a Metal subgenre.

The problem is that Metal is NOT acoustic, it's Rock. The whole "Electronic vs Acoustic" division doesn't make any sense, at least how you treat it. You guys are treating EDM like it's half of music in existence when it's really more analogous to Rock. Take a look at pretty much any brony convention, all the "acoustic" segments are always entirely Rock while the "electronic" segment is entirely EDM, that obviously doesn't mean that all music is either EDM or Rock. There is a huge EDM bias here, there exists lots of Electronic Music genres outside of EDM and they have nothing to do with Dubstep, just as Metal has nothing to do with Country.

Anyway, Metal influence is not creating distorted guitars, that's over simplifying Metal and the real impact it had, as you said there were distorted guitars before Metal, it's Metal's other aspects, how it used distortion to get an effect, that is influential. Metal influence is all over Rock, and it's not just distortion, most Rock bands have at least some Metal influence at some point in their career.

Also, there is Metal influenced Jazz, it's called Jazz Fusion (well, the newer Jazz Fusion is Metal influenced, the original Jazz Fusion came at around the same time as the first Metal so it couldn't be Metal influenced). The thing is the larger of a Metal influence Jazz Fusion has the more likely it is to not be classified as Jazz but instead as Metal, calling it Progressive Metal. Distorted guitars are found in Blues, that's sort of how Metal got created in the first place. Blues Rock is way more popular than acoustic Blues. If Country or Folk were distorted they wouldn't really be Country or Folk anymore, they would be Rock. Folk Metal happens to be one of the most popular genres of music in Finland. The problem is how you are grouping things, it doesn't make any sense, especially when you look at genres over time. These genres blend all the time and now the Metal version might be as popular as the pure versions, I don't think they are, but the point is the way you are grouping things contradicts itself because the methods of grouping are not analogous.

Then, as I said, Metal dominated Popular Music for a period of time just as Dubstep is doing now, Dubstep is too young to see if it has a lasting impact. In 20 years all music with a dirty bass might just be considered a single genre, rendering your point completely moot. You are trying to compare a decades old scene to a scene that's only a few years old by placing them in groups they simply don't fit it. We have just pretty much repeated the same thing.

Finally, we all resized that line was obvious trollbait, that just makes you even more of an immature kid. Notice my ranting was not about saying Metal is hardcore (Punk is more Hardcore )

-Soft D. String DeHooves

[Nine Volt]

I don't quite get why exactly metal fans and dubstep fans can't just get along?

[ghelded_kultz]

I don't quite get why exactly metal fans and dubstep fans can't just get along?

CUZ DUBSTEP DUZNT TAYK ENI SKILZ LUL!!!!!!!!11111!!!!

No really, the main issue seems to be that the more annoying metal fans don't like EDM and the really annoying EDM people (what's a good denonym for them? Raver is too specific and Dancer is too broad and nondescript) don't like metal. Because annoying people are the loudest, it creates the illusion that the majority supports what the minority is saying (this applies all over the place. Just look at the US political scene and than realize how few people actually like the Tea Party) so it seems that metal and dubstep fans can't get along, when for the most part they probably do, especially off the internet.

[vladnuke]

I always imagined electronic music as a step forward into the examination of music, it's kind of like painting with sound.

Now yes, dubstep isn't exactly "dubstep" anymore, it's departed from whatever Skream and Benga had started back when it was still considered an offshoot of two-step garage. But now the word "dubstep" has been claimed (read:appropriated) by the American market. And frankly it's now gotten so embeded in our lexicon that it's not going to change anytime soon.

So now, traditional dubstep is marred UKstep, and CallOfWubWub420XDfest2011 is given Dubstep.

Then again, every genre of Electronic has been crossbred with countless coloquial quandries to a contention with cause and effect, making most mainstream maggots mull all the music over as either techno or dubstep.