Does anybody have advice on mixing kick drums with bass?

[ChocolateChicken]

Straight to the point, this is a tough one for me, but I don't think it's a problem for anybody else. How do I properly mix a bass with a kick drum, considering that they share mostly the same frequencies (the 50Hz to 200Hz range)?

A large problem I have with mixing is preventing the bass from interfering or taking away from the kick drum, while also keeping the bass audible. I have this problem with both rock music and EDM.

The first thing I think of in this situation is EQ, but I don't think that's really a good solution. I think that you can't really reduce or cut any bass frequencies in either track because that's their whole point.

Sidechaining is another idea, but not every song is a french house song with a pumping, sidechained bass line. Perhaps a very small amount of sidechaining?

Compressing the bass so that there is an attack transient (if there wasn't one already), or just compressing (with no transient) with makeup gain so that there is a perceived loudness and to reduce peaks is another thing I've tried, but this doesn't always work.

The last option that I am aware of is layering the low end of the kick with the low end of other kicks, or parallel compressing it so that there is more low-end presence in the kick for each time the kick drum is played, which reduces the amount of the kick being drowned out by the bass. This works for me most of the time, but what do I know?

Anybody have any solutions?

Also, when EQing drums, should I use Linear Phase EQ or regular EQ?

[the4thImpulse]

There are two easy options that most songs take. Its either you have a HUGE bass that carries most of the sub energy combined with a light kick (that has little sub content) or you have a simpler bass (with little sub content) and let the kick carry out a longer sub release. Either way works great and it will all depend on track style and 'feel'. You can get both with a carefully designed kick and bass, add some EQ and sidechaining and it will be rocking!

Now I always sidechain everything to the kick, seriously just about everything. Sidechaining doesn't need to have a huge pumping effect everytime, for me I often have at most 3dB of gain reduction on the sound being sidechained. This is almost unnoticeable when mixed in with all the track elements but it will bring out the kick a whole lot. You can also change the release time of the compressor (assuming your using sidechain compression) so you get much faster attacks on the bass (less pump).

[XXDarkShadow79XX]

Well, I have the habit of always making my kick hit 0 db, so I'd probably just turn down the bass and let the kick just punch through it. Or I guess you could always use a bandreject filter with a large bandwidth and have your kick sit in those frequencies.

IDK. I have this problem a lot too.

[Raddons]

Well, I have the habit of always making my kick hit 0 db...

Partially unrelated but this gives you no headroom to work with. The wonderful HMage gave me advice to never let the kick exceed -11db.

[Navron]

You want some headroom, but -11dB seems rather excessive, especially if you're making EDM with hard hitting kicks and snares. I often don't let my kicks and snares go over -6dB.

As for the sub from the kick and basses clashing, you can either:

- EQ the kick's sub bass frequencies out of the bass's sub frequencies.
or
- Use side-chained compression so the basses duck when the kick drum hits. If done well, you can have the kick punch through without hearing any kind of pumping effect/noticeable gain reduction in your bass.

[Versilaryan]

I usually shoot for -6dB headroom, but I lower so many faders in mixing it ends up around -10. xD

Similar to what everybody else has been saying, you should pick your kick based off of your bass. If you have a really low, sub-heavy bassline, shoot for more of a lower-mid crunchy kick without too much sub. You're not going to hear that sub very much if you've already got a ton of it going. Likewise, if you want a really low kick, make sure you aren't using as much sub in your bass. In short, just make sure your sounds complement each other so you don't have too much competing for room.

Increasing the treble in your kick will actually make it stronger, too. That opening thud really gives it presence, especially in bass-heavy songs, by making it a lot easier to hear when the kick starts.

Just some food for thought. Sidechaining and subtractive EQ are good ideas, too, as pointed out above.

[Omegastick]

On the topic of headroom read all of Macc's replies on this thread.

You'll learn more about gain structuring and headroom and anything than you ever have in your life.

Also, Darkshadow, no offense but that makes me die a little inside. You have literally no headroom every time your kick hits. Unless you turn the master way way down (which causes it's own problems) you're gonna be clipping like hell on every single thing. Here's some serious advice for you: you can make a good mix loud, but you can't make a loud mix good. In other words, don't feel the need to push all the levels up during the mix because 'it sounds good', loudness comes in the mastering stage. You want as much headroom as possible (well, not as much as possible, you still want to make use of as many bits as possible, but leave about 3-8db headroom and you're all good)

[XXDarkShadow79XX]

Sorry guys, but I'm used to mixing LOUD. I barely turn down any faders, and I don't touch the master volume. Ever.

[Omegastick]

If you want to mix loud then turn your speakers up, you'd just destroying your mix by having the master go over 0db.

[XXDarkShadow79XX]

I always put a soft clipper on the master. I never clip.

SWAAAAG.

[Captain Ironhelm]

-sidechaining
-choosing a lighter kick
-pulling back on the bassline
-write the bassline so it isn't playing during the kick
- remember contrast. drums can suddenly get punchier if you turn down other elements. everything can't be 100%, you have to make cuts somewhere. SOME MUSIC IS LIKE TYPING IN ALL CAPS AND GETS TIRING REALLY FAST.

[ChocolateChicken]

I'm a little surprised that this thread turned into a "Mixing at 0dB" thread pretty fast, but thanks to those who stayed on topic.

...everything can't be 100%, you have to make cuts somewhere. SOME MUSIC IS LIKE TYPING IN ALL CAPS AND GETS TIRING REALLY FAST.

Omg YES. This is probably the most annoying thing in any song, when it is either BRICKWALLED AT 0dB, or when every track is clearly at the same level at every frequency. I think that's when a song goes from sounding like music to just sounding like noise.

Also many of you suggested the use of small amounts of side chaining, subtle enough so that there is no noticeable pumping effect. That is very good advice, and I was almost unsure of whether or not that would be a good technique to use. Thanks for that.

Darkshadow, please listen to the advice everyone has given you. You're going to make me cry.

Also, I still haven't gotten an answer on whether or not I should use regular EQ or Linear Phase EQ on drums/bass.

[Nine Volt]

I don't even know what a linear phase EQ is lol

But yeah, sidechaining the kick is a good strategy even if you don't want it to pump. Just fiddle around with the threshold and all that till you get a clearer kick. You can even sidechain the bass/synths to the snare like this to get a clearer sound, either sidechaining normally or possibly sidechaining so that when the snare hits it causes and EQ to EQ out around 200hz, making your snare stand out.

[Thyrai]

Also, I still haven't gotten an answer on whether or not I should use regular EQ or Linear Phase EQ on drums/bass.

I've heard that it's pretty much a sin to use linear phase EQs directly on low frequency channels, because they lose quite a bit of definition. If you use highpass/lowpass modes you're going to be dealing with pre-echo as well.

I don't even know what a linear phase EQ is lol

I'll take a swing at this.

Regular EQs are essentially a collection of filters, and they function by delaying certain signals by differing amounts - causing phase shifting. Regular EQs have a knack for coloring the sound, even when you haven't added any dB boosts or cuts to a pole.

Linear phase EQs add that delay the wet and dry signals at the same time, so the phasing is directly proportional to the frequency change. Essentially, it makes it more transparent and causes less 'damage' to the original wave form. You can also use them to make infinite dB boosts and cuts. The cost of this, however, is latency and sometimes severe delay. Never use these live.

Another downside of linear phase is that it will introduce pre-echo. It's basically unwanted (but subtle) distortion/artefacts added to your sound. I believe regular EQs also have this problem, but it gets almost completely masked by design.

Regular EQs are generally going to be better for your individual busses and tracks, and linear phase EQs are more suited for master channels. Linear phase EQs are also overrated.

[Applejinx]

Ted Templeman always used to hack a big chunk out of the kick's lowmids, and that was where the bass sat. It's so aggressive on some Van Halen records that you can see it on a 'sonogram' of the track... definitely one possible approach.

[XXDarkShadow79XX]

mmkay, so maybe I lied a little bit about the faders thing:



(Sorry for breaking the thread)

But it doesn't help that I eq like that. The top left EQ is my kick, the bottom left is a supersaw lead, and the bottom right is a short bass. It also doesn't help that I put a bunch of crap on the master even BEFORE mastering, though here I was just experimenting.

But as you can see, I haven't touched the master fader. My kick is hitting -1 db, (Whatever lol) and everything except for the sub is turned down. Maybe I'll post the project later so you guys can hear how it sounds.

[ph00tbag]

I do this for almost every track I do unless I know my kick and bass aren't going to coincide:

-Kick cuts off below around 30Hz, boosts around 100Hz, cuts around 300-500Hz, levels off at around 700Hz, then cuts off again at around 15kHz.
-Bass cuts off below 20Hz, boosts around 30-60Hz, cuts around 100Hz, boosts around 300-500Hz, then slowly fades off until around 15kHz, where it cuts off.
-Sidechain kick to the bass bus with a ratio of 2-3:1, short attack and release to minimize pumping.
-Mix kick and bass on a dedicated bus where I compress them again to cut down on peaks.

That last one is probably inadvisable, but I've always felt that it makes the kick and bassline blend with a bit more punch. The first three I definitely recommend, and you can experiment with the fourth bit and see what it does for you.

I always put a soft clipper on the master. I never clip.

SWAAAAG.

Dear lord in heaven, wat.

[XXDarkShadow79XX]

I always put a soft clipper on the master. I never clip.

SWAAAAG.

Dear lord in heaven, wat.

XD

No, but seriously, I don't clip. Ever.

[Omegastick]

Darkshadow, a soft clipper does what it says. Clips softly. It doesn't sound as bad as digital clipping, but it is still ruining your mix.

[ph00tbag]

Yes! Yes! To Omegastick you listen!

[XXDarkShadow79XX]

Darkshadow, a soft clipper does what it says. Clips softly. It doesn't sound as bad as digital clipping, but it is still ruining your mix.

Still sounds better than a limiter. I overcompress my tracks anyways, so it's not like I'm losing any headroom or dynamic range.

[Stars In Autumn]

Please stay on topic with the OP's post. Thanks.

[XXDarkShadow79XX]

Sure thing!

On topic again, I've noticed that less heavily-processed kicks are easier to mix in dubstep. Just nab an acoustic kick, compress it, then eq the lows and mids out.

Also, it really depends on the kid of bass you have. If your bass is more midrange, then have your kick sit under it. If your bass is lower, have your kick sit over it. If they really are taking up the same frequencies, then chances are, it's time to get a new kick.