Music Theory

[Dr_Dissonance]

Ah! We're talking to each other in two threads at once! It's going to get nuts!

I don't know. I don't take college classes or anything, my guitar teacher just teaches me. As I said in the other thread, he has some degree from Berkeley School of Music, so he knows his stuff.

I've personally always been fascinated with odd time-signatures and key-signature changes. I used to do that alot, when I wasn't any good, haha.

Ha, I'll just keep it here from now on then, otherwise I'll confuse myself!

Okay, so do you have a good idea on how to change keys with relative ease? Give me a couple! After that, know any tricks to changing keys that aren't normal?

[RobotPony]

Yes. I do. Jazz does it all the time!

For example,
Dm7 - G7 - Em7 - A7

Am7-D9-Bm7 - E9-Eb9-D9 (Bm7 - E9 makes a "key of the moment" as my guitar teacher called it, the next chord is just a passing chord to step down back to the original key)

These lines are longer, but I'm just focusing on the part where the key changes. Yeah. That last one is from a jazzy song I wrote, the other one is a song he gave me to work on. If you want me to come up with random stuff, I could do that too. I'm just a little tried. Not sure if it maters.

I don't know what's "not normal". The only music that I play consistently that does this is jazz. No idea if the chord changes I did here are not normal or whatever.

[Dr_Dissonance]

Yes. I do. Jazz does it all the time!

For example,
Dm7 - G7 - Em7 - A7

Am7-D9-Bm7 - E9-Eb9-D9 (Bm7 - E9 makes a "key of the moment" as my guitar teacher called it, the next chord is just a passing chord to step down back to the original key)

These lines are longer, but I'm just focusing on the part where the key changes. Yeah. That last one is from a jazzy song I wrote, the other one is a song he gave me to work on. If you want me to come up with random stuff, I could do that too. I'm just a little tried. Not sure if it maters.

I don't know what's "not normal". The only music that I play consistently that does this is jazz. No idea if the chord changes I did here are not normal or whatever.

Ha well, those are way more complicated than what I was expecting! I was looking to see if you understood the basics, like 7th chords and their use in modulation. 9th chords are a bonus! And when I said "aren't normal", I more meant anything that is reallllly complicated... I reckon 9th chords probably fall into that category!
But cool, you know a fair bit from jazz theory! That's handy!

So, 7th chords, do you know all the variations? And where they're used (normally)? That last question could be ignored, considering we're living in the 21st Century, where every rule of music theory has been broken!

[RobotPony]

Well, I don't know if I would say all the variations, but I know quite a few. I know of 13, 9, 7, Major 13, and 11. Out of all of them, it would seem I play 13ths and 9ths the most, not that you asked that, they just seem to be everywhere to me.

Um, normally? I don't know what you're getting at with that question. Unless you mean with the V chord is commonly played as a dominant 7th. Or is that just jazz theory? I'm not sure.

[Dr_Dissonance]

Well, I don't know if I would say all the variations, but I know quite a few. I know of 13, 9, 7, Major 13, and 11. Out of all of them, it would seem I play 13ths and 9ths the most, not that you asked that, they just seem to be everywhere to me.

Um, normally? I don't know what you're getting at with that question. Unless you mean with the V chord is commonly played as a dominant 7th. Or is that just jazz theory? I'm not sure.

Ha, I meant with just 7th chords, so Major 7th chords, minor 7th chords, Major m7th chords, Diminished and half diminished 7th Chords!
They have different contexts and different ways to use them. They are:
C Major 7th (C E G B)
C Major m7th (C E G Bb) (the m stands for minor, so a Major minor 7th!)
c minor 7th (C Eb G Bb)
c Half diminished (C Eb Gb Bb)
c Diminished (C Eb Gb Bbb)

This is more classical theory though, so please stop me if I'm going too far!

[RobotPony]

I was thinking dominant, and you were thinking just 7ths. I forgot to mention minor/major 7th chords. I have heard of the Major m7th chords, but I have never played one. I have played a couple diminished/half-diminished. Does Augmented count too?

No! Keep going. You're getting into some areas my guitar teacher hasn't covered yet. And I find it interesting if nothing else.

[Dr_Dissonance]

I was thinking dominant, and you were thinking just 7ths. I forgot to mention minor/major 7th chords. I have heard of the Major m7th chords, but I have never played one. I have played a couple diminished/half-diminished. Does Augmented count too?

No! Keep going. You're getting into some areas my guitar teacher hasn't covered yet. And I find it interesting if nothing else.

Hmmm, I don't recall if there is an augmented 7th...C E G# and B? Or Bb? I'm not sure...

Well, they're basically just used for colouring your 7th chords in the typical use of the 7th chord. So, moving to another chord or key. One of my teachers would use scenes from Star Wars where each chord progression occurred, to help us remember them and how they sound...

Here's something extra: the diminished chord has a fun way of changing the key or chord. It can be used to move to the chord with the tonic as the 7th!
So:
C Diminished (C Eb Gb Bbb (for ease purposes, we'll call it A)
We call it the common-tone diminished 7th and write it as ct7. This is because it is very weak harmonically, so it has no theoretical root...
An example of a progression would be:
C Major (C E G C)
Ct7 (C Eb Gb A)
A Major (A C# E A)

This is getting into the really complicated stuff that used to give me a headache when I first learnt it...

[RobotPony]

That makes sense! Because C diminished 7 is the same as Eb diminished 7, which is the same as Gb dim7, which is the same as Bbb(A) dim7, right? That's so awesome! If only diminished chords sounded less jarring, then I would be using them all over the place!

I knew that 7th/dominant chords were awesome, but I wasn't aware they were this awesome!

[Dr_Dissonance]

That makes sense! Because C diminished 7 is the same as Eb diminished 7, which is the same as Gb dim7, which is the same as Bbb(A) dim7, right? That's so awesome! If only diminished chords sounded less jarring, then I would be using them all over the place!

I knew that 7th/dominant chords were awesome, but I wasn't aware they were this awesome!

Bingo! You got that pretty quickly! Well done!

And yeah, they're used as passing chords, so you do see ct7 in a fair few happy pieces!

[ArtAttack]

I've had 8 years of on-off piano lessons from about 5 different teachers. Most of them were "herp derp here's a book learn the pieces derp", but there was one named Scott Jarret. He was amazing. I remember his wife sawing some wood outside, and he'd stop, think a bit, then play an F. It matched the pitch of the saw. We'd sit down, and just start learning and playing chords. So many chords. I credit my interest in composition and music to him. But yeah, my structure for composing is:
A: Improvise on the piano until I get a cool melody/chord progression
B: MIDI it into FL
C: Mess with a synth till I get a cool timbre
D: Add drums according to the genre I'm making
E: Spend hours messing with the transient on a kick
F: Eventually get it to where I like it
G: Plug everything into a song structure
H: EQ the hell out of everything till it sounds good
I: Sleep

[RobotPony]

Bingo! You got that pretty quickly! Well done!

And yeah, they're used as passing chords, so you do see ct7 in a fair few happy pieces!

I already knew about the property of diminished 7ths chords to be indecisive on their name, I just didn't know you could use that to change key! I should've thought of that before, then again, I haven't had that much of an opportunity to use them. They don't really fit in rock music that well, I could put it in a jazz song, as I know they are used in jazz somewhat.

[Dethonator]

I learned music theory by myself for the most part, though I did get lessons. Though I learned about scales and modes independently and through online vids. As I composed, feeling and vibe came before composition. However, they are now sorta in harmony now.

[Mox]

I played piano up until high school, and took AP music theory... my favorite class ever. I totally clicked, and the instructor was cool and deviated from 18th century to show us pop music theory eventually.
My mental process is absolutely centered around progressions function of chords in every bar of the song.

[TranquilHooves]

This thread must be resurrected due to the fact that this is such an interesting topic.

[soultensionbenjamin]

to me i always get bored with the 17 and 18th ceuntry theory so i just try to replicate something thats similar to my favorite song i even steal a chord or 2 and implement it

[Kopachris]

Everything about music theory I learned from reading books. I started with the textbook for my high school's AP music theory class, but I didn't actually take the class. Then I moved on to Walter Piston's books, Alan Belkin's books, and William Caplin's Classical Form. I'm still reading more books. Currently working on Derryck Cooke's The Language of Music, which has been very insightful so far.

[Makkon]

I can't read music. I know little theory, just what I've learned from you guys. I just go for what sounds good.

[WavesOfParadox]

My love for theory knows no bounds

[TranquilHooves]

I can't read music. I know little theory, just what I've learned from you guys. I just go for what sounds good.

I've heard that before, but it's surprising that someone like you that makes great orchestral stuff doesn't know much theory. :pinkieshrug:

[WavesOfParadox]

I can't read music. I know little theory, just what I've learned from you guys. I just go for what sounds good.

I've heard that before, but it's surprising that someone like you that makes great orchestral stuff doesn't know much theory. :pinkieshrug:

I also really don't know how they do it

[Makkon]

Over time you just get an ear for it, just a lot of listening. My focus is just as much on sound design and balance as much as it is on structure. I can perform on the piano, mostly self taught, but I don't think I could ever go pro due to my handicap. Knowing theory looks better on paper, no pun intended.

[Sai]

Most of what I know I've picked up from just listening to a lot of stuff and messing around on a few different instruments. Mainly piano. I have a book or two on music theory that I really should get around to reading sometime, but it's just more fun to sit down and hit keys until something sounds good...
So yeah, I know a fair bit of general music theory stuff, but I don't have any actual formal training.

Also, tuplets confuse the hell out of me. Triplets I can get, ususally, but the rest of them...

[Dr_Dissonance]

Oh hey, this thread is back. I remember when I was a wee lad and pressed the post button...good times!

Anyway, yeah, to recap for me, I'm in my final year of a Bachelor of Music Composition at University, so that should give you an idea on how much I've learnt theory-wise (and alcohol consumption-wise)!

[MorteMcAdaver]

I started bass lessons at age 13, and guitar shortly afterward. I learned the basics, but resisted learning theory techniques from the teachers, instead just wanting to learn to play what I was hearing from songs I liked. It wasn't long before I just started writing my own material based on what made sense to me in terms of melody and structure.

Five years later, 18 years old, THEN I learned music theory. I had already been singing in choirs and had written a fair number of songs, playing by ear all the way. It was definitely the best way for me to learn theory, since I kept seeing things and saying "wow, so THAT'S what I've been doing!" and it was lots of fun (though tedious at times) to learn.

Fond memory: memorizing the circle of fifths as "Four Cats Got Drunk After Eating Breakfast."

[Captain Ironhelm]

I look at theory as a guide-line, not a rule.