Innocent Electronic Music Production [Just an idea]

[[voodoopony]]

DISCLAIMER: This is long.

A lot has changed with electronic music back then and now. Nowadays you can get really in depth with techniques and whatnot, but even with crisp production, the final product isn't necessarily good or quality itself.

Innocent production is what I describe as simple music, but beautiful and timeless in itself without needing to have all of the popular techniques of the now. It doesn't involve the trendy production qwerks required to make your head nod to the beat like nowadays. Take these two songs for example, the first one is innocent and the other is guilty beyond.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBksNzj2lm0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QY087RDlxg

The first one is just pure house ideology, it has a basic acoustic kick and acoustic snare with minimal effects and raw instrumentals combined with a singer who DOESN'T have the much-hyped black lady voice required to make it in the top 20 nowadays. Despite it's simplicity, the combination of these raw sounds make up for it's iconic classic house sound of the 90s. This was when the genre was still in development and the torch was held by pioneers of it. Having been new, it wasn't inspired by anything like it before and is in itself pure, or innocent.

The second one is a decade into the future. Technology has advanced and now the capabilities of creating music are more accessible to everybody with ease. No longer do you have to have the know how of working a sequencer or deal with reel to reel tape. No more difficulties are in the way of the creative process that only the most dedicated would endure in its entirety. But without the discipline and dedication that was needed to compose back then, the music now is a helluva lot different.

One thing I noted is that this is far after the genre took off, and it's mainstream presence contributes to the artificialness of it all. That being said, nothing new is created, only material that is inspired by previous artists.

By guilty production, I'm referring to all the production quirks that are in the hype nowadays: The abuse of sidechain compression, the bland use of standard software synths which sound like nothing more than plastic toy synthesizers, the little amount of effort needed to drag and drop loops and presets that would have taken ages, a lot of money, and musical knowledge not long ago, the layering of drums with an overload of bass, the search for that uber-cool Skrillex and Excision bass, the urge to out-bad other hipsters with your sine wave, etc.

I'm not saying it's bad. In fact, there are great uses for this guilty production, and I feel we're in somewhat of an underground musical renaissance. With these capabilities, I'd imagine almost nothing is impossible with sound. The thing with guilty production is just how easy it is to make a shit song, but then throw in some sidechain, this preset you got off youtube, maybe make the kick louder and add in moar sine wave, and walla! A work of modern art. Just imagine how it was like to make music without ANY of these things, but still make it sound good, let alone great.

Here are some more examples of innocent to guilty production.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSnhXGVTdbk [Made with reel to reel tape.]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4ASoB86 ... ure=relmfu [Made with everything we have.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ9J5-sJw9w [Just a drum machine with simplistic melodies and sounds.]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WPCLda_erI [I dont think I need to say anything about this one.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNStVlJWy88 [Before dubstep got into it's "out-badding" phase]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym32QGFckP0

Any thoughts? I just felt I should write about what I thought somewhere. I'd post some examples of good guilty music, but I've showered you guys in enough links.

[penguindf12]

Hm, since I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to house, I'll ask about the one group I do know: where would Daft Punk fit into this? "Discovery" era, I mean.

Also, hmm... the Love Bite sounds kinda "classic" & pretty catchy, if simple. The Deadmau5 sounds really generic and boring. Both are definitely predictable, but the former is actually interesting to listen to. Why does anyone like the second one??

[[voodoopony]]

I mean to me the second one is a bit crap [MY OPINION ONLY], and with the sidechain and sub bass and whatnot made it just a little bit more interesting in a way. Not enough to prevent giving me a headache, though. If it weren't for those add ons I'm sure it wouldn't take people long to realize how boring, stale and bland it is.

Daft Punk, tricky... putting their mainstream success to the side, I'd say they're somewhat of a hybrid [more innocent] but they certainly did pave the way for the new. They worked with raw samples and material with slight alterations yet still made them hard and banging in a modern way which I like. I haven't seen many reach their level of good beats.

[DerpyGrooves]

I think it's wise, in the context of production, to strive for a more natural sound, and I think it's a common misconception that electronic music can't sound natural.

There's an artistry that we all need to embrace... After all, the production studio is just as much an instrument as any violin or piano. I often find myself inspired by the work of Phil Spektor. The absolutely HUGE sound he made even back in the sixties is a testament absolutely to his skill. Lately too many people are satisfied to compress their tracks into a sausage and say screw it. TBH I'm really not fond of skrillex for that exact reason. He's a great musician, but his music is so overproduced and spaztic it spends hours saying nothing.

[[voodoopony]]

I feel there are great musicians who are a lot better than the music they produce, like what you said about Skrillex. I think since deadmau5's influence a lot of the music nowadays is more about the production side of it than the actual song. It just fascinates me how good songs can be, without any of the staples needed to be relevant nowadays. I think there's a helluva lot more talent in that than spending hours learning the secrets of deadmau5's kick drums.

Some more examples of innocent music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atIIDThvx-Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jQ_bOP0HfY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgsddjuPjwo
No sidechain, wobbles, bland percussion, vapid melodies, etc.

Examples of good guilty music [basically utilizing today's technology for the better]:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ89dxhD-Zc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gxhLiNypVU [The art of sidechaining?]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0FmZReUWXU [This is my idea of expanding the boundaries of dubstep.]


I plead guilty. I started off with Garageband; I'm still recovering.

[Stars In Autumn]

Well, I'm in a position in that I'm both new to production of music and to a lot of the electronic genres. Before Skrillex, I didn't know what dubstep was. But I think that gives me a cool perspective in that I don't think the newer stuff is better than the old, or vice verse.

I personally don't believe that you can "overproduce" something, though. Music is music. You can make good music ranging from straight acoustic to the stuff the big producers are doing now. I can see why someone would not like a large amount of compression. But it's just a technique. Hey, if you want your song to have little dynamics, then fine. But since everyone is doing it now, you're going to lose some of the uniqueness of your song.

I don't totally understand why musicians that are just starting off want to do exactly what the pros are doing (other than just learning the technique). It seems hard to get noticed if you do what everyone else does.

But that's just me, a noob at electronic music so far.

[Andy Feelin]

DISCLAIMER: This is long.

A lot has changed with electronic music back then and now. Nowadays you can get really in depth with techniques and whatnot, but even with crisp production, the final product isn't necessarily good or quality itself.

Innocent production is what I describe as simple music, but beautiful and timeless in itself without needing to have all of the popular techniques of the now. It doesn't involve the trendy production qwerks required to make your head nod to the beat like nowadays. Take these two songs for example, the first one is innocent and the other is guilty beyond.

If I understand you right, the "innocent production" is most of electronic music of 90s and older? In other words, you like what is referred to as "retro sound"?

[aap998]

as long as it sounds good!

[[voodoopony]]

If I understand you right, the "innocent production" is most of electronic music of 90s and older? In other words, you like what is referred to as "retro sound"?

Not exactly, but a lot of older music is made without modern day techniques. Some is still made today. The Youtube thingie iamamiwhoami have an abstract and hard sound to their music but they don't do anything too fancy [I hear 808s and whatnot]. Basically what I tried to get at is that a lot of music nowadays is only listenable or good with the standard go-to put plugins than the music on its own [which would be a lot more challenging to achieve].

as long as it sounds good!

/thread

[Andy Feelin]

Then I would like to support your point. I also had a feeling that some modern hits rely on the sound more than on the melody or riff. And this omnipresent side-chain compression sometimes makes me sick. This is one of the most IMHO notable examples of this approach, do you agree? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvf9DlliY84
This song doesn't even have a distinct lead synth - which was so untypical for dance music before mid 00s.

And how I understood you, this is an "innocent" song (although released 2007)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy999RLAc3w

[[voodoopony]]

Great examples, Andy. The first song seemed like a bland, over done chord-ridden cliche to me. I'm liking that second one, it has a cool bassline.

[Whitetail]

With the technology to produce music so much more available nowadays then ever before, there's many more players in the game - the more competition there is, the more selective record companies are going to be about who they sign. While before a record company had to find a good artist and work with them to produce their profits, now they're on the controlling side because there's many other musicians out there making equally quality produced music as the artist they are currently dealing with. In that manner they're not going to be looking for whoever puts the most feeling or creativity into their music, but who's going to sell well.

This, along with the advent of centralized internet providers of music (think Itunes), really puts more emphasis on selling then on creativity. You can release an entire album all you want, but most people are only going to download one or two tracks so unless you compose your entire album of singles your music is going to be limited to "that one song by that one guy." That's why you see artists like Deadmau5 rise to musical dominance, as far as they're concerned they could be very artistic people but for them to survive in the big deal business they need to know how to pump out more of the same.

Fact of the matter is that most people in the EDM scene care more about rhythm and being able to dance to the music then melody, you can't dance to melody - and thus much popular EDM turns out to be boring and uninspired.

It's like Country music, you don't hear more creative themes in the lyrics (or songs period, popular country is musical blackhole of uninspired composition, writing and presentation) because if it's not guns and 'Merica it's not going to sell.

[ArtAttack]

This is why I love deadmau5. He has the guilty-pleasure, overproduced, banging electro house (Ghosts n Stuff, Sofi Needs a Ladder, Professional Griefers, etc) , and the chill-out progressive and IDM tracks (Bleed, Strobe, Creep, Sleeping Beauty Pills, etc)

Myself, I love producing what you would consider "guilty" music. I think of it as a game, really. How can I get this kick to sound nice while still having a heavy bass? How do I fit these vocals in there? What if I chop everything up and stitch it together again? It's the boundless expression you can get out of it that really makes me love electronic music, and why I don't write minimal stuff. If I wanted something minimal, I'd use acoustic instruments like my guitar or piano, not my producing PC. But like aap said, as long as it sounds good!

[bartekko]

that's why i keep my patches fairly simple, not overproduced, however if i have an idea for a specific sound i try to get it no matter what

[[voodoopony]]

Deadmau5 is a guilty pleasure of mine though I never listened to him much. I have to admit though, the way he gets his kicks to sound like that fascinate the shit out of me.

@ArtAttack Yeah, making guilty music is pretty fun Something about it is satisfying when you know you're doing it like the big dogs.

I think it's because of the general approach to music nowadays. Back then there was less electronic influence [what you can do with a full studio and it's instruments], and now it's all about the software and it's plugins.

[Whitetail]

Personally I adopt a "whatever means necessary" philosophy when trying to get a specific sound, even if that means doing something the hard way or the stupid way. I don't really think plugins and electronics are the enemy here, I mean really - would many of us even have access to the world of music without them?

I know Skrillex gets bagged on all the time for being the posterboy for brostep, but you have to admit that his methods are pretty creative - it's not like we can't learn a thing or two from mainstream music too.

[SeanNH94]

I'm just curious what you all think of this deadma5 track. It's one of my favorites, mostly because it's catchy, and the mixing on it sounds amazing.
From what I understand of Spitfire's Voodoopony's point, electronic music nowadays is focused on effects and the sound itself, rather than the actual notes of the music. I'm personally fine with it. It is extremely hard to write ANYTHING musically creative anymore. It's all been done before. Period. The only thing really left is to make something stylistically different. Pretty much the only way to do that now is by using effects in a creative way.
Honestly, I didn't care for most of the Innocent tracks that have been posted. They didn't seem any more musically creative then most guilty track (except for that deadmau5 one. Even though I love deadmau5, I'll admit he's made some crap.) They did have a neat sound to them, and I might try and emulate that kind of sound someday, but really those tracks didn't strike me as anything special.

[Whitetail]

The Deadmay5 track is good I guess, but Deadmau5 never really spoke to me on a level that I'd hold special to other music, I just don't get much emotional out of it that I find rewarding.

"I'm personally fine with it. It is extremely hard to write ANYTHING musically creative anymore. It's all been done before. Period. The only thing really left is to make something stylistically different. Pretty much the only way to do that now is by using effects in a creative way."

Au contraire, on many many many many many many many many many levels

That sort of defeatist attitude will only hinder your writing, music has plenty of room to evolve if you think we're done now we're just getting started now that just about anyone can produce their own music. 100 years ago you think anyone could've possibly guessed what sort of music we're listening to now? Maybe a few, maybe a few but you think anyone would even guess that something like modern dubstep, with it's huge "obnoxious" noise walls and use of non-tonal sounds, would be concievable 20 or so years ago?

Our system of music may be grounded in 12 simple tones, but you're kidding yourself if you think we're done now, and that's within the boundaries of our current system of music - imagine if a completely new system arose? Think what if quarter tones were easily accessible in our western music system? The possibilities are endless.

[JackleApp]

I'm just curious what you all think of this deadma5 track. It's one of my favorites, mostly because it's catchy, and the mixing on it sounds amazing.
From what I understand of Spitfire's Voodoopony's point, electronic music nowadays is focused on effects and the sound itself, rather than the actual notes of the music. I'm personally fine with it. It is extremely hard to write ANYTHING musically creative anymore. It's all been done before. Period. The only thing really left is to make something stylistically different. Pretty much the only way to do that now is by using effects in a creative way.
Honestly, I didn't care for most of the Innocent tracks that have been posted. They didn't seem any more musically creative then most guilty track (except for that deadmau5 one. Even though I love deadmau5, I'll admit he's made some crap.) They did have a neat sound to them, and I might try and emulate that kind of sound someday, but really those tracks didn't strike me as anything special.

Nope

[Dr_Dissonance]

Think what if quarter tones were easily accessible in our western music system? The possibilities are endless.

I have nothing to say in this conversation, I just wanted to say that quarter tones ARE easily accessible...it's just no one is brave enough to use them properly...

Anyway, back to electronic music!!!

[[voodoopony]]

We've entered this sort of era where all the simple melodies have been snagged by the innovators and early artists. There are still plenty of amazing songs to be done and notes to be heard, we just have to really get creative.

Hence why pop music back then sounds more iconic than the seemingly aimless pop we get today.

[Whitetail]

Think what if quarter tones were easily accessible in our western music system? The possibilities are endless.

I have nothing to say in this conversation, I just wanted to say that quarter tones ARE easily accessible...it's just no one is brave enough to use them properly...

Anyway, back to electronic music!!!

Note that most instruments aren't made with ready access to them (sure bend the strings on a guitar, make a ton a little sharp on a wind instrument, etc. etc. - you just have to fight most instruments to get the sound), nor do really have a good way to notate them atm

[Dr_Dissonance]

Note that most instruments aren't made with ready access to them (sure bend the strings on a guitar, make a ton a little sharp on a wind instrument, etc. etc. - you just have to fight most instruments to get the sound), nor do really have a good way to notate them atm

Lol, well, there is a system of notating quarter tones...I use it regularly for my non-pony music!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter_tone

Besides keyboard and most percussion instruments, which require retuning, all the other instruments can in fact play quarter tones easily enough. I've worked with many players who can do it, but it's not regularly taught, unfortunately...

Strings can do it with different fingering/bending
Woodwinds have special or half-fingering
Brass do quarter tones if you don't play them properly
Synthesizers can do it if they're programmed to
And so on!


But in order to not derail the topic, are there many electronic writers that use quarter tones, or tunings that aren't Western? That would be a really interesting idea to explore!

[Sugarholik]

How about a challenge, where the idea is to use quarter tones, weird timings and anything that breaks the standards of modern music?
Alot of stuff could be learned from this.
I'd totally want to go for it...

EDIT: Made a thread to Challenges, Contests and Events.

[SeanNH94]

That sort of defeatist attitude will only hinder your writing, music has plenty of room to evolve if you think we're done now we're just getting started now that just about anyone can produce their own music. 100 years ago you think anyone could've possibly guessed what sort of music we're listening to now? Maybe a few, maybe a few but you think anyone would even guess that something like modern dubstep, with it's huge "obnoxious" noise walls and use of non-tonal sounds, would be concievable 20 or so years ago?

Our system of music may be grounded in 12 simple tones, but you're kidding yourself if you think we're done now, and that's within the boundaries of our current system of music - imagine if a completely new system arose? Think what if quarter tones were easily accessible in our western music system? The possibilities are endless.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I agree, no one would have thought we'd be making music like modern dubstep even 5 years ago. That has more to do with the style than the notes themselves. Musically, most dubstep today is very basic, composed of a few chords and simple melodies. Unless you compose your music completely and ridiculously outside, then someone will have used that melody over that chord progression. Maybe not in a dubstep style, but in a classic rock style, but it's still been done musically before. Years from now there will be another crazy style of electronica/metal/pop/jazz/fill_in_the_blank but with the possible exception of jazz, the same chord progressions will be used, and the some scales and arpeggios will be used. Sonically there will be music we could never dream of in the future; but strip away the cool new effects and then it's "oh hey, I recognize that beat/melody/chord progression, X used that in their song Y Z years ago!"
I'm not trying to be all defeatist, you can still make good new music, and it will be new and sound new, but there are very few things we haven't tried musically.

How about a challenge, where the idea is to use quarter tones, weird timings and anything that breaks the standards of modern music?
Alot of stuff could be learned from this.
I'd totally want to go for it...