Dear MLR

[Bronytech]

It's important to believe in yourself, and to adhere to a personal standard of etiquette towards other individuals. This attitude is easy to maintain in smaller numbers, but as the numbers grow, it will require more management and focus to moderate a community.

Everyone needs to do their part as a member of society in order to "love and tolerate" other people they might not agree with, and try to see eye to eye. This isn't just a value of the show, it's a value of everyday life. Unfortunately, sometimes amends can't be made. It's sad but true.

I'm new here, and I don't know much else about what's going on, but hopefully you guys sort it out. It's always a shame when something new and great forms a good community, and it starts to fray.

[Flutterbro]

Really, ALL I've been hearing today was 'this is not an official MLR chat, so we don't have to give a damn about MLR rules kthxbye'. We're a community, and if 95% of the people in a certain chatroom are part of the same community then you can't tell me it's not related. I'm not saying I've been mistreated or anything, quite the contrary actually. I've had a LOT of fun talking to you MLR people the past week. But if people tell me my argument is invalid because 'I'm a newby' (which I am definetely not, in so many ways...) then something really snaps for me. I think the so-called 'attitude' that comes with the internet fame some of us are experiencing is really a downer... not just to new musicians, but I'm really discouraged as well. Most of the times I don't even feel like I belong here because I don't have enough youtube subscribers to be taken seriously.

But... yeah, Senator Myth, as much as I hate to see you leave, I think your post was a necessary one. What you just addressed is one of my MAIN problems with this community. I don't know if it's still like this, but even in the IRC I would get verbally crucified if I told someone I didn't want to know about their sexual affinity towards horses. I literally entered the IRC channel of this site a few weeks ago, the one linked to in the menu below the header, and I find myself in a discussion with people who are literally justifying bestiality (not just r34, I'm talking about actual bestiality) and telling me that I'm being stupid for not tolerating who they are... I want to be able to chat with brony musicians and contribute to this amazing fanmusic community without getting slapped across the face with nsfw-material all the time, is that so hard?

But luckily, I can see improvement is made. The music discussion and pro discussion chatrooms have been perfectly clean and I can talk about music and ponystuff all I want without having to worry about spontaneous r34 references or other inappropriate behavior. This is a GOOD thing, and that should be addressed as well! Giving feedback doesn't just mean complaining about what's bad, but it also means addressing what's good. And this is something I really approve of.

Now I just hope the IRC will stay clear of that stuff as well. I mean, if you really HAVE to talk about r34 then you could just make a new room for it. "/join r34discussion" or something, it's as easy as that!

The only person to ever bring up that topic was [REDACTED] though I did miss out on the other instance

[bartekko]

and we were to give this site a reformation...

no amount of mods will help if this site and it's community if we don't find the problem, all of them, and somehow get them fixed.

This whole site is about Music * Ponies . or at least should be.
(I never am online when actual flames appear on skype chat or somewhere else, so my vision might be a bit blurred, so forgive if this post is somehow)
so keep it about music and ponies. If someone says something silly, tell him he was wrong, tolerate and leave this stuff behind. If someone gets rejected from a group for some reason, tell him exactly the reason. If someone's grammar is very bad, (Well, If I was a mod, This site would become a grammar nazis haven) or punctuation is not used at all, don't go "Y U SO ANNOYING JESUS", but face this guy's antics, an know that nopony is perfect.



I've been reading a chat log from about two months ago, where I've been.
I CANT BELIEVE I WROTE ALL THIS SHIT BACK THEN

[Interrobang Pie]

I don't care what we become. I love you guys.

[BronyJake]

Alright, Since we are finally addressing issues I guess I'd better say what has been bugging me for the past month or two.

First off, Myth. If you are reading this, I am going to miss you greatly. You were actually one of the few people I have nothing against and loved talking to in the skype chats. I don't blame you for leaving at all.

A couple of things,

If we're going to be a community that puts pornography above treating one another with respect, then I don't want to be a part of it. If we're going to be a community that puts games of status and popularity above music, then I don't want to be a part of it.

One of the things that really bugs me is all of this popularity stuff. I hear people with hundreds to thousands of subscribers on YouTube complaining. "I need more subscribers." or classifying someone by the amount of subscribers they have. When they come in and complain about how they want more or they really wish they could hit the next milestone. They need to remember how other people hardly have any. I myself, only have ~140. I am perfectly fine with that, it is what it is. But when I hear of people who are really talented and have little amounts of subscribers it doesn't seem fair to me. Now, I'm not saying that the more "famous" (for lack of a better term) people don't deserve their subscribers (Which they sure deserve them). It's when it goes to their head and they get that cocky attitude.

Kind of like Toastbeard. (The weekly compo with new topics every week.) It just seems like a popularity contest. I myself, really want to participate in the toastbeards but I cant. And I don't feel really pleasant about doing so anyway. It seems like whenever the more famous people do a song for toastbeard. They instantly get votes. Now, I love the more famous people, and hope to become friends with them. But when it is a competition for everyone, it seems a bit unfair. I don't know how this really relates to MLR and how relevant it is. I just felt like putting it in to my rant anyway.

For the pornography part, I am agreeing with Myth's quote.
There have been incidents where people were settling issues, or trying to discuss something and someone would randomly pop in and link R34. It does make people uncomfortable. Guilty as charged. I myself have found myself saying things along the lines of "Get used to the R34.". Only now do I realize how bad that is. That the musicians skype chat (that I now know not to call the MLR main chat.) has somewhat lowered my standards. That I am now okay with clicking R34 links, and that is quite sad. It gets really annoying.

Now, As compelled as I am to just give up on these people. I'd like to call them my friends.
One of my personal flaws is that I am a person who will do anything to keep everyone at a happy medium. I want to say that all the porn is a bad thing, (which morally, it is) but I have done nothing as to stopping myself from clicking it. Hell, I let myself go into that "R34 is normal for the skype chats" mindset.

Whatever side you are on with this whole ordeal, In the end. I can call you all good friends (as good as a friend someone around the world can be). Each and everyone one of you has something admirable to look up to. You are all great people. Even Interrobang Pie. (<3)

Another thing,
I have noticed some of the "Newbies vs. Veterans" conflict. (Really, its hard to miss. You could cut the tension with a knife.) I don't want to sound like I don't know my own actions. It's who I am. I know I have probably caused some sort of bad feelings to some of the new individuals (and I regret it). But personally?

I'm all for the new people.

I have no problem with them, really. I do not appreciate it when they come in and act rude though. I want to give people the benefit of the doubt, but when the new people are feeling so depressed or sad about the whole "Veterans are superior" thing. Yet they proceed to come in and put down another musician for the use of presets, I can't have much sympathy. I'm not saying I am going to discriminate them, I just don't like the disrespect going on if what one of the issues is about mutual respect.

I personally think it is an issue that involves BOTH parties and that one can't quickly jump to defend the somewhat "helpless" (thats what it feels like is being portrayed) new people and assume we are all to blame.

I love the MLR community and remember when I joined. I got nothing but a warm welcome. I don't know what happened to that for these new people.

I will continue to remain active. As much as I find myself kind of left out in the chats. Ignoring them for the most part. I just can't give up on the great people I have met and grown somewhat attached to.

[bartekko]

But when I hear of people who are really talented and have little amounts of subscribers it doesn't seem fair to me.

And now it won't be only about talent. the amount of subs someone will be more or less related to "how good can I advertise this song into being pony-related"

[PinkieGuy]

The sound of my heart shattering into a thousand pieces

I'm sick of this. Seriously, I'm sick and tired of having to read these.

If this isn't a substantive wake up call that something needs to change, regardless of where you stand in these ethics/morality/community debates, then I don't know what is.

Seriously Myth, I've loved you as part of the community and it pains me that you're leaving, especially after you've had to come face to face with miscommunication in the past, and put forward such great suggestions for improvements. It hurts that nothing has changed since the last time we had resignations.

It also concerns me that there are others who are suggesting leaving the community for similar reasons. If there are that many people affected by this, then clearly it's something that DOES need to be addressed; not only as a community, but by every member of the community individually. Please stop now, and ask yourself: "Have I been an obstinate [Censored] this week?". Be honest please.

Kind of like Toastbeard. (The weekly compo with new topics every week.) It just seems like a popularity contest. I myself, really want to participate in the toastbeards but I cant. And I don't feel really pleasant about doing so anyway. It seems like whenever the more famous people do a song for toastbeard. They instantly get votes. Now, I love the more famous people, and hope to become friends with them. But when it is a competition for everyone, it seems a bit unfair. I don't know how this really relates to MLR and how relevant it is. I just felt like putting it in to my rant anyway.

Toastbeard isn't an MLR product though, it's sci's own thing. Beyond that, it's sort of the "Whose Line Is It Anyway?" of competitions: "It's the show where everything is made up and the points don't matter". I get how frustrating the 'Famous Musos get votes', but generally the most deserving songs sift to the top. For example, Zorg's entry in the Nightmare Night response clearly deserved to win, and I don't think a single person didn't vote for it (apart from Josh's hacky friends).

Beyond that though, Toastbeard is generally about getting your music heard, not about winning. If you submit a song, and get in the sync-listen you're going to get both complimentary feedback and helpful advice from people on how to improve things, and THAT'S the real value of toastbearding.

[Dr_Dissonance]

Why am I always asleep for these???

The worst thing, though, is that the people I talked to after I left did not actually try to stop me. A few of them even said "Yeah, I know what you mean... I'm about to leave too, I think."

For the record, I was one of the folk who considered leaving as well. Myth was one of my closer bros on Skype (and here) and it pains me to see him leave. But I didn't stop him, because at the moment...he has the right idea...

I won't repeat what's been said, but basically read Myth's comment again and let it sink in...our community is in disarray and it's falling apart...but it's Skype where the worst of it is occuring!

And the word 'censorship' being used in the wrong context....uugggggh! I'm rather vocal when someone or something attempts to censor, but there is a difference between removing something somewhere just because someone with power doesn't like it and removing something somewhere because it's wholly inapproriate...

The stuff that occurs on Skype (porn, R34, etc) falls under the latter category...it is not censorship, because you can still get your dose elsewhere! It's upholding values, not censorship...learn the difference!!!

[Diss Order]

I actually did leave a few times because of this. It's probably the reason why plenty of people think that I'm new here: I've been inactive a few times because I simply didn't want to come here anymore. I've been in so many fights with some of you people, I can almost 'sense' what people think of me when I enter a chatroom. It's such an unwelcome and unwanted feeling...

I thought I was alone in this, but THANK GOD a lot of people have the same frustrations.

Next time though: If you see someone is being mistreated, don't wait for an admin to address the issue on a forum thread several months later... Be a little less passive and help a brony out, will ya?

[d.notive]

ITT: d.notive pulls the age card.

I have made it a point to be willfully, blissfully ignorant of whatever drama surrounds the Skype chats and cliques within them, but if the crux of the conflict within that means losing a cool guy like Myth, then I guess I'm hard-pressed to stay completely silent on the matter.

First of all, I know a lot of the people reading this thread are people who enjoy being in a particular clique or group, so let me address all of you first.

cliques are pretty dumb

I was pretty much over them in middle school.
... still over them in highschool
... still pretty much through with them when I was in college...

... and you know, as a fully fledged, hard working, clock-punching, paper-pushing, jaded, cynical adult, I'm still pretty much over them.

I know some people really thrive on the exclusivity and, dare I say, disparity, but in the end, these are the people who are shooting themselves in the foot (or should I say hoof?) Your creativity relies entirely on your being open to new ideas and concepts -- locking yourselves away into incestuous little groups isn't going to help any of you grow, ever. So if you want to stagnate and tumble into the abyss of irrelevancy, be my guests.

Now, to those of you who are feeling left out by the "cliqueyness..."

If some folks want to go off and form their own little groups, let them; they're only hurting themselves. Pretending that there will never be another influx of talent beyond what already exists is not only naive, but stupendously counterintuitive to the creative process. There are always going to be talented musicians coming and going; acting like there is one finite group of "elite," is only serving to embrace a common, age-old misnomer.

Also, on that note, I have a personal beef with a chat allegedly for "Professional Musicians."

Unless you are making a living, or have made a living doing music (either through a record deal, or licensing), you are not a "professional" musician. Period.

...

Now, as far as the Skype chats themselves are concerned?

I think the biggest misconception people have about the Megaskype is that, being filled with brony musicians, the chat topic will always be about music; this is simply not the case. Once you get past that very simple realization, your experience there will be much more enjoyable.

There is room for give and take on both sides of the 'issue' here. A skype group is a private, invite-only group, and the people who created it and currently run it are entitled to run it however they please, however, these people must also understand the tremendous amount of power they wield, which is, perhaps, what people feel is lacking. If you want to moderate a chat, you need to remain objective. If you want to run a chat and keep your patrons happy (i.e. prevent drama), you have to have the capacity to set aside your own inclinations on any and every matter that might arise, and judge things from a non-biased perspective.

As a chat user, what does this mean for you?

If you're the type of person who doesn't mind in-jokes, swearing, porn, or whatever else there is, be mindful that your implicit 'okayness' with something, doesn't automatically apply to everyone else. Does that mean you need to completely censor yourself or stop a certain behavior just because a few people don't like it? No, but perhaps it does mean you need to put a little warning tag before doing something other people might find objectionable.

If you're the type of person who loathes all of the silliness, detests R34, and hates RP, you must remember that your distaste shouldn't automatically apply to everyone else either. It's possible you might be the only person who cares, and while it's not unreasonable for the other people in the room to perhaps adjust their behavior in small, considerate ways to make you feel more comfortable, they are by no means obligated to stop completely just to accomodate you. Remember, if you're really having an issue, No one is forcing you to be there.

I am very saddened, and in many ways even ashamed that this whole thing is even an issue.

I can honestly say there is not a single one of you I dislike or have ever felt remiss for interacting with, both 'elite' and 'newbie' alike.

All of you have greatly enriched my experience here, and despite whatever in-fighting there might be, I still enjoy my time spent with this community, both in the Skype chats, and out of them, and I have no intention of leaving any time soon.

Love, Matt (aka: d.not-that-relevant)

[Freewave]

Seems like a lot of the problems seem to come offsite via chats. I'm well aware you can get more bonding and discussion done on a chat then on a forum but I think it might be in the interest of MLR to keep the forum's full of life and active with discussions then the chats (which can go off-topic and tribal very easily). Most forums I know of aren't so off-site chat focused tbh.

This is a close-knit community that newbs might not feel terribly involved in yet. For it to thrive as planned people need to keep it positive and make an effort and knowing their peers (and a peer should be any brony really). Sure the happy mood and values is very infectious but people have to back it up with mutual respect for another and a willingness to see that when we work together we all succeed. Being a newb the most difficult thing I have to deal with is just feeling out of place.

All I can do to make my self feel a part of something that's already so active is do some of the obvious things I've learned in a short-time; review what other's are doing (keep it postitive but constructive), take part in discussions, eventually get involved in Toastbeards or Remix Wars, be willing and active to remix with others, don't put out a track in completed until you are really happy with it (use work in progress when you're stuck), comment-subscribe-befriend on here and youtube (and hope for the same), and most of all just try to be nice and enjoy this vibrant scene that's really remarkable. I hope other people who are new and out of place will take the same steps. I'd hate for people who have been a part of this for several months (and hopefully seen some of the benfits of that) feel like this is coming to an end due to infighting or lack of communication (both are deadly) rather than still feeling like the beginning of something special.

[Overkillius]

No one is forcing you to be there.

Good point.
*Leaves*

Kidding of course (for now I guess) (Actually before I read your post I was just driven away from the mane chat and decided to leave... so maybe not)

In all seriousness though, I feel you are missing the point. We don't WANT to drive people away from the community. (Or am I speaking only for myself here?)

[d.notive]

No one is forcing you to be there.

Good point.
*Leaves*

Kidding of course (for now I guess) (Actually before I read your post I was just driven away from the mane chat and decided to leave... so maybe not)

In all seriousness though, I feel you are missing the point. We don't WANT to drive people away from the community. (Or am I speaking only for myself here?)

Actually, you might have missed my point, and I think Makkon touched on this as well.

MLR.com = The Community

#bronymusic = The Community

(Mega)Skype Chat =/= The Community

This is a music community first, and a pony community second. That's simply how I see it. I consider the divide between MLR and the Megaskype pretty self-evident in this regard.

I'm not advocating people straight-up leave when something bugs them, but let's face the facts here. From what I'm gathering, it has, historically been too much to ask to simply request people put aside their differences and all get along for the purposes of 'friendship' and 'tolerance,' so where does that leave you? I'm only suggesting that people, perhaps, try to walk away from, or ignore things that irk them, instead of letting them fester and churning them into these things that are prompting people to leave. Hell, there are people here that aren't in the Megaskype, or ignore it completely, and are still definitely part of this community. I think giving a skype group that much power is a mistake, but that's just my opinion.

Put another way, one might say you don't shit where you eat.

[Overkillius]

MLR.com = The Community
(Mega)Skype Chat =/= The Community

I'm not even sure this is true. It's the same people; How is it not the same community?

It’s skype, we have no authority over what you do outside of MLR. But we don’t appreciate this negativity and trollish behavior taking any shape on the forum or in treatment toward other members in the community (in or out of MLR).

This is INCREDIBLY dissonant (not the kind the good Dr likes) up against this

Actually, you might have missed my point, and I think Makkon touched on this as well.

MLR.com = The Community

#bronymusic = The Community

(Mega)Skype Chat =/= The Community

Makkon didn't say the skype chat and MLR.com are seperate communities. Infact he talked about skype and MLR as if they had the same community (they do have the same community).


Sorry d.notive but... I love you as a person and respect you as a musician, but could I please request you don't post until you actually read the thread? Thanks. I await your useful input.



Besides that...

[7:50:32 PM] Myth: Don't think d.notive understood my post at all.
[7:50:46 PM] Myth: It's almost like he didn't even read it, which is saddening.

[8:08:12 PM] Myth: My understanding is that my post opened up a can of worms.
[8:08:26 PM] Myth: ...I'm not sure if I should have made it or not, at this point.
[8:08:49 PM] Myth: Everyone's telling me it was an important post to make. But a lot of people seem to be skimming it and missing the point entirely.
[8:09:02 PM] Myth: They see words like "Rule34" and just automatically assume that that's my only problem...

Essentially he is pissed that people are missing his point. I'm also kinda pissed at that too. I don't know what to tell you other than what my class piano professor says:

It is an understood rule that you must read what is on the page. You won't succeed if you don't read black and white.

[Mundius]

If we're going to be a community that puts pornography above treating one another with respect, then I don't want to be a part of it. If we're going to be a community that puts games of status and popularity above music, then I don't want to be a part of it.

If this is a community that actually does this (note that I'm really under Tom on the status of bronies), then what the fuck is wrong with all of you? I'm with Myth on this.

Respect first. Love and tolerance (listening to others' opinions and considering it as possibly valid with no negativity expressed is my definition, even if said opinion is bashing all 3 million bronies) second. The rest third.

If porn > respect, then this community will die.

So, yeah, if what Myth posts is true, then I am ashamed to be placed in the same category as the sick fucks that believe that porn > respect above. Did you learn everything from the show? Did you really? Note that I'm not calling anypony out or stating that all bronies do this, but this can't actually be a rule in bronyism.

I really want to speak with Ingram on this, and that I understand perfectly why he's afraid to go on some brony sites at times. (You know who you are)

[Makkon]

Guys, we're missing the point. The real issue at hand is the general treatment of other members and the overall attitude of of the members. The porn is secondary.

[Mundius]

To me, respect is first, obviously. And we're lacking that, porn just seems to be more important at times than respect of others. Of course, it's not always true.

This is wrong.

[DJShamrock]

I feel like I need to address some things on the 'Pro' chat.

I was there when it was instated by Orchestral. It was started to get away from the spam and porn of the 'main' chat (known as megaskype now). It was also meant to replace the voice chat, as at the time it was mainly used for all of the roleplaying silliness that was going on (which I had no issue with and still don't. I'm involved on both fronts)

Now, the Newcomers chat was also started for this reason. We wanted newcomers of MLR to be able to hop on Skype and talk to other newer MLR folks and collab on music with like-minded peers, without being 'dredged' down by a lot of what was in the main chat. I agree that the 'wording' of the "Professional" chat was and is a PR nightmare. It's not meant to assert that anyone is better than anyone else. The chats were kept separate (Pro and Newcomer) because the Pro chat was a voice chat, which gets mucked up when you had more than 25~ odd people in it. That's why we could only have a certain number of people. I've been told recently that this malfunction of the software has been resolved. I remain neutral on that front.

The Pro chat was not started to be a clique. In fact there were a bunch of people that I wanted added to that chat initially as well (like Senator wanting Triangle). I was told by Orch that we had to keep it below 25~ because of the voice call issue. Whether this is still true, I cannot say.

I still believe in the Newcomer chat. There is nothing wrong with having a chat where new people to MLR can come and hang with other new people. In fact I advocate it, as it can be very intimidating to come face to face with all the 'big names' and being lost in all the chaos that is the megaskype chat. The Newcomer chat is one of the lonely seeds of hope that I have in this community. It has been a flourishing chat for newcomers abounding and I don't think I've ever seen it in a general spam session even once. Everytime I look in that chat something GOOD is happening. Up and coming musicians are discussing music theory and methods. That's what this place is all about, and I'm proud to be a founder of that chat.

That said, I'm no white knight. I've R34'd and chat-killed with the best. On a personal level, I see nothing wrong with it so long as you're respecting other people in the room and posting warnings, etc. I'll say this much: The least we can do in posting R34 is waiting for people who have a problem with it to go AFK or to sleep. In my experience the R34 is always more active at night anyways.

I still don't think R34 is a big deal, so long as you warn people. But then again, I'm a furry. I've been around the culture of R34 for 10 years, so what do I know.

But as Makkon and others have said, this discussion is about RESPECT. If someone asks not to post R34, don't do it when they're there. Makkon, I never knew your feelings on profanity. I apologize because even if I don't remember an instance, I -KNOW- I've cursed around you. That's just who I am, it's a core part of my personality and how I express myself. But I can't curse on the radio. And if I can keep from doing it on the radio I can keep from doing it for a friend.

So at the end of the day, in this pony's opinion, all of the things we've been talking about (besides elitism) is completely acceptable, if done with respect. Someone says "Hey, please not around me" Then don't do it around them. Simple enough. Doesn't mean don't do it ever. They go to sleep? They leave? Go right ahead.

Liberty with responsibility. That's the order of the day.

[X-Trav]

"Dear MLR," indeed.

Myth, i'm going to miss you. Greatly.

Throughout my time here I've honestly held no issue with the content we've produced, for better or for worse. People like what they like, and I respect that. I've yet to see a major disparity that just a little persistence cant break, but I've seen drama and it seems to be tearing us apart.

While it is extremely important to consider how people will react to how you act, it is also extremely important for you, yourself, to consider the view points of everyone around you and how they may see your reaction. A lot of the issues I've seen expressed have almost always been personal. "Love and tolerance" doesn't mean you have to be perfectly fine with everything! To me, the majority of you have taken part In a semantic change of the word "Tolerance." It seems as if you all believe that if you're not loving of everything then you're not a brony. Tolerance just means you put up with something, you can still hate it. You Tolerate the crying baby on an airplane, you tolerate the long lines at the DMV, You tolerate going to work or school. That doesn't mean you have to go over and hug the baby, or throw a party before every trip to work/school. Of course you hate it, you're most likely not the only one, but that doesn't mean you bottle everything until you write some long letter of resignation explaining you're issues there and then leave. Some people DO like school, and someone out there might find a baby crying to be a pleasant sound, you might think them crazy, but unless they are deliberately causing harm, you have no right to get offended or confront them. You'll meet people you don't like everywhere you go, we live in the real word, this isn't Equestria, no matter how much we want it to be, which brings me to my next point...

You're standards are too high! I'm gonna go ahead and use NACP as an example. One of his issues with us was not taking this site as seriously as we "should" or not utilizing it's full potential, and I agree completely. But what some of you fail to realize is, the majority of us are a bunch of insecure teenagers and young adults, myself included.OF COURSE a chatroom full of our demographic is going to be hectic! Why would you think different? It's going to be one porn filled circle jerk with immature jokes everywhere, this is the internet. There will rarely be moments if pure professionalism in our community. That's something a lot of you need to realize.

We are humans.

But despite all this, we've made an amazing thing together. How many of you have stopped to think about all the emotion we've put in to our music? About how many hours of time have we used for each-other? No one here is perfect, but at some point, all of us have shown a fondness for each-other, whether you are "famous" or not.

You cant "love and tolerate" others, unless you "love and tolerate" yourself.

Makkon, you're very passionate about this whole thing, and I appreciate that to no end. you've done nothing but give and give: a rare quality in a human being. You are a talented artist in a multitude of mediums and an inspiration for most of us. Especially me. But, this is a community you've created, not a business. We've had threads like this before, and though some have changed, it's impossible to make this ship watertight. A lot of us act like children because we are still children, it's a sad truth.

But the saddest truth of all everyone: we won't last forever, lets enjoy it while we can, together and in respect.

[d.notive]

Actually, Overkillius, I went over the thread in its entirety before posting. It's not usually my style to leap into something this heated otherwise. It's entirely conceivable I missed something however, and that being the case, I apologize.

I also thought it was somewhat obvious that I wasn't responding directly to Myth, but speaking more to the issue of communal division in general, as it's something that's been weighing on my mind.

... I'm not even sure this is true. It's the same people; How is it not the same community? ...

This is INCREDIBLY dissonant ...

Makkon didn't say the skype chat and MLR.com are seperate communities. Infact he talked about skype and MLR as if they had the same community (they do have the same community).

I don't want to put words in Makkon's mouth (and please correct me if I'm wrong), but I interpretted...

It’s skype ... outside of MLR.

(emphasis mine)

... to mean that the Skype chats, while related to MLR in content, are not part of it or even sanctioned by it.

I'm sorry Overk, just because it's a similar crowd does not make it the exact same community. That's the misnomer I was trying to address by saying that.

...much in the same way that David Bowie was David Bowie, and Tin Machine was Tin Machine, even if it was still David Bowie's band; they are completely separate entities, comprised of the same core people.

In fact, given that R34 stuff does make its way around the Skype group(s) from time to time, and a significant portion of its participants are under 18, I would consider it necessary for this site to be pretty far removed from that behavior, if only for legal reasons.

... and that, my friend, is strictly my opinion.

Now, as for this:

[7:50:46 PM] Myth: It's almost like he didn't even read it, which is saddening.

[8:09:02 PM] Myth: They see words like "Rule34" and just automatically assume that that's my only problem...

On a personal note, I feel like it's kind of a cheap shot to put Myth's words in here without really giving him the benefit of a complete context, or me the benefit of an opportunity to say something to him directly on the matter (it's sort of like you two were gossiping about me behind my back), but I guess it's not really of consequence.

I never once assumed that was Myth's problem at all, dude, in fact, the core of what I was getting at in my contribution was about the very topic of this thread, which is new people getting excluded, trolled, and getting poked fun of behind their backs, not to mention the allegedly rampant amount of inappropriate content that flies around outside of the forums. I haven't seen it happen extensively, but I've seen enough to know it's a serious issue.

Now, Overkillius, you already know how I feel about this, as I have spoken out on this subject at least once before; I'm very surprised you've forgotten my views on this topic so quickly.

If what I said was lacking clarity (or focus), then I apologize. To my understanding, having read the introductory post of this thread, its purpose was to address the concerning amount of disparity with, and negativity toward new people (not to mention the prevalence of 'public' R34), which is what I thought I was addressing.

Granted, I will admit I took a few liberties with the topic, lodging a few personal grievances along the way. However, the point is that my opinions the topic are my own, and while it was Myth's initial catharsis that inspired me to have my own, my post was in no way directly correlated to his, other than by inspiration.

If anything, I'm a tinge disheartened that both you and Myth assumed I was talking about him, when in reality I was talking about my own experiences as they related to the topic at hand.

I guess I felt like I was on target with what I had to say, but if I missed the boat, then oops, my bad.

*rubs temples*

Now, I can't pretend that I'm any kind of internet force to be reckoned with, or that I know everything there is to know about what's going on in this community -- I can only speak from personal experience. I don't care if there's a central IRC Channel, a giant MegaSkype, or ten smaller ones. I came for the music first, and the ponies second. How we, as a community, choose to conduct interacting with one another toward these ends is really not of any consequence to me.

I saw an opportunity to share a few personal feelings related to the topic at hand, and if that's going to be perceived as inappropriate, then rest assured it is the last time I will do so. I am not interested in this community's politics.

Oh, also:

...I agree that the 'wording' of the "Professional" chat was and is a PR nightmare. It's not meant to assert that anyone is better than anyone else...

I want to thank you for addressing this. I've seen a number of people speculate on the nature of the not-so-secret secret "pro" chat without much factual basis, and... well... it's always secrets and lies with those ponies.

But the saddest truth of all everyone: we won't last forever, lets enjoy it while we can, together and in respect.

^ This, right here.

[DJShamrock]

...I agree that the 'wording' of the "Professional" chat was and is a PR nightmare. It's not meant to assert that anyone is better than anyone else...

I want to thank you for addressing this. I've seen a number of people speculate on the nature of the not-so-secret secret "pro" chat without much factual basis, and... well... it's always secrets and lies with those ponies.

You are welcome. I'm a man of transparency. I'm sorry no one up to this point has been able to shed light on this. Unfortunately, I don't frequent the forum much so this is the first time outside of Skype I even knew this was an issue. Secrets lead to elitism and corruption, something I think we're trying to dissolve here.

[Tiaaaaa]

I've had the good fortune to not have seen any of the drama going on and I've never really noticed much of a division, though that could be because I spend most of my time in the newcomers skype. What I have seen, though, is people leaving. Not just leaving, but quitting pony music altogether. People I respect greatly and whose music is part of the reason for me even trying my hand at music in the first place. Even if I never personally knew some of them it's really pretty painful to know that they won't be making pony music again. Even if I haven't been here very long, I've been welcomed warmly and received incredibly friendly criticism from the people here. I kind of like it here and I'd hate to see it fall apart. So, I still wanted to add my two cents just in case it might somehow be helpful. I know I have a habit of being a very opinionated person so if I say something stupid, feel free to call me out on it. I read this over a couple of times, so I hope I don't sound too self-righteous or anything. I'm not saying that I'm not guilty of ever being a jerk, so feel free to tell me when you think I'm being one.

Something my political science teacher said this semester is that politics aren't about what the majority wants, but what the majority will tolerate. Politics exist to save the minority from the majority. I hate politics, and I imagine a lot of people here do as well, but it still seems that this is really applicable here. You can't always get what you want 100%, and only through compromise can any community last. What I mean is that you have to consider what you say and do objectively because it's always possible that you're the one in the wrong. It's easy to demonize people you don't like or who hold opinions or have hobbies you don't agree with, being fans of FiM we should all be aware of that. It's important to remember, particularly with the anonymity and impersonality of the internet, that you are talking to other real human beings who have their own lives. You don't know what their reasons are for having their opinions or hobbies. But whatever those reasons are, it's not worth condemning them. That is the heart of love and tolerance, being able to be friends with someone you don't agree with.

I know that in these kinds of threads r34 gets brought up as the issue a lot, but if you're sure that's what the problem is then maybe you should take a step back and think about it for a second. If everyone in the community stopped posting r34 would it solve all of MLRs problems? My bet is that the answer is no because, like Myth has said, there's a bigger underlying issue. Avoidance is something else that's easy, again especially considering what the internet is, but it just serves to create more problems. Nothing more. If you really can't bring yourself to confront a problem you're having then maybe you should consider why. As a society we like to avoid direct conflict, but if that is your only reason for not bringing up problems or for ignoring them when they are brought up, then forget societal norms. They're really more of guidelines anyway.

Still on the r34 subject, though... In most communities it is generally an unwritten rule that you don't bring up politics or religion because even tiny differences in opinions on them are some of the quickest ways to make people furious. What people don't seem to realize is that sex is just as much of a touchy subject. Differences of opinion on how you should have, think about, or even discuss sex can possibly make people even angrier than religion and politics. I'm not saying that no one here should ever bring up any of these things, but if you do then keep in mind you're guaranteed to ruffle someone's feathers and when you do, that person will carry it with them every time they see your name on their screen in the future. Just consider what effect your words could have before you use them. They're surprisingly powerful things. This is a two-way street, though. Like I said, demonizing someone for having a different opinion won't do any of us any good, so if you're harboring resentment against someone just because they said they like r34 or, yes, even said they're okay with bestiality then maybe you should reconsider. No one is a single aspect, and just because you don't like one thing someone said in a conversation you had last week is no reason why you can't get along with them.

I know that this is the internet and that there's a common belief that everyone should shut their emotions off when they log on and never be bothered by anything, but not everyone holds that same belief. It really takes very little effort to be considerate of other people. It can be as simple as adding NSFW tags when you post things that are NSFW. I'm not entirely sure when consideration or kindness became bad qualities to have, but this is a pony community. You can claim that it doesn't mean people should expect others to be nice, but I for one became active in the pony community because it was so much friendlier and more accepting than other communities I've been a part of. I want to be around kind people and I know for a fact that there are other people here who feel the same way. I may be projecting, but I think the majority of people here probably feel the same way. That isn't to say things like trolling and what not should never happen, but there is a very distinct line between good-natured trolling and being a jerk. The goal is to NOT make the people you're talking to miserable. And also to not make them want to quit the community.

But like Myth and Makkon have been saying, communication is really what matters here. Ignoring problems until you feel you have to leave will only hurt you and everyone around you. And I really don't want to have more of my favorite musicians quit just because the community doesn't want to talk when there's tension in the air.

[SoGreatandPowerful]

I don't really understand any of this stuff, but I've chatted with you guys on Skype all of two times, and already I'm in that Circuitfry thing -- which, by the way, I'm not even sure is serious or not because I'm so puerile! Ugh. Beginners' luck, I guess. As many apologies to Diss Order and the MLR chat as necessary. Poor excuse, but: I'm still sizing up the demeanor of rapport here.

[Tephnos]

Hmm... I feel I need to get a few things off my chest regarding this entire issue.

Well, first of all, I'll never consider that 'Megaskype' series of chats as the 'official' ones, simply because they don't adhere to the rules of the forums. It seems a lot of inherent problems of this fractured community have roots and origins from those chats, at least from what I've observed. It's a children's playground that some keep calling 'official' and the 'one and only MLR chat' when it simply isn't and can never be. I like to think of it as a 'no holds barred - enter at your own peril' type chat. The kind of chat where you can go and talk about almost anything – so long as you know the risks involved. Some others would like to think differently. This is disappointing.

I do remember when r34 was first posted in that chat (that I was witness to), and I did mention how it didn't really sit well with me. I was pretty much given the "That's the way it works around here, deal with it" response. I find that disheartening. You ever wonder why most forums have a no religion/politics rule? Those are the kind of issues that *really* flare up people of all ages and maturities. Differences of opinion in those subjects are hard for the majority of us to tolerate. Sex, usually being one of them. It seems everyone who voices concern over the r34 is quickly shut down and told to go home. Whilst not the main cause of all these underlying issues, it certainly doesn't plaster up the cracks in the foundations either. Every article of drama brought forth by that issue only serves to further pry away at the cracks until the foundation gives way and crumbles.

Now, this isn't a 'r34 cause of everything' post, it's simply based on my personal experience and from what I've seen first-hand. A lot of the "This is how it's done around here" type responses have led to many people being silent about the problems they have with this community. We all know bottling it up only increases the pressure with each silent incident until the threshold is reached and it explodes. In this case, by people leaving. The fact that they have come to this conclusion, and to quit pony music altogether, is showing a huge underlying problem with this community. The fact that they feel that they cannot come forward with their issues without being berated is an issue. The fact that some people in this community actually contribute to that berating without any consideration for that other persons morals or personal feelings is an issue. It doesn't take a genius to figure out this is not how a community should ever be ran.

I have mentioned before but, before I came here, I had read quite a few comments on youtube about MLR. None of them exactly stellar - citing alienation a big problem. Separation of the newbies from the experienced artists, the popular from the relatively unknown, that kind of thing. I decided to join nonetheless, as I wanted to get into music. At that point, I don't think it had been that much long after NACP, and so the forum was in the beginning of an attitude change for the better. I felt accepted and disregarded those youtube comments. However, now it seems those issues are cropping up again, with lack of respect being a big contributor to it all. For example, I have observed a lot of new people being ignored in some of the MLR chats. I don't mean never giving an opinion or helping out with music, I simply not even acknowledging their presence. Now, how is that supposed to make a newbie feel? They want to be accepted into a community so they can make new friends and improve their skills, and yet are given the cold shoulder by some members of this community. What the hell is up with that? Have we really become so segregated that we’re going to just push the newbies away because we believe ourselves better than them? Granted, this appears to be a minority issue, but it still contributes to the cracks in the foundation. Another thing I have spotted a few times is some people love to wave around how much subs they have, saying they need more or something like that when they already have thousands. It’s disrespectful to do it in the presence of a newbie musician who has to fight for every sub they get, and even then, don’t have much as they’re just starting out. Would you like it if I was waving around how much better of a musician I was than you in front of your face? No. You wouldn’t. It’s these kinds of disrespectful actions (granted, some that do it may not realise how it can make others feel) that cause rifts within the community in the first place, as the newbies feel they have no place in the presence of those more experienced than them. This of course, defeats the entire purpose of MLR. There’s more things I could mention, but I’m pretty sure the point I’m making is clear – the inherit disrespect in the musical aspect of this community, not just the r34 and other things, is a big cause of the divide in some members of the community.

It’s these kinds of issues that are pretty much subconsciously stopping me from wanting to get started with music in the first place. It’s almost like I’m thinking that by becoming musically involved within the community, I’ll end up becoming a cause of the problems, or something like that (That's a big thing to say, but it's just how I feel regarding it at the moment). It’s disheartening that I should even begin to think that before I’ve dipped my feet in the water, and it makes me wonder how much worse it must be for some of these newbie musicians. This is especially the case when you consider that some of the more experienced members appear to have a big case of bravado, puffing up their ego whenever they can. Or at least, that is how it appears to me, and so it will most likely appear to the newbie musicians. It’s a big complex issue. It appears that some people like to single out one issue (say, r34) and proclaim it the main problem with the community and by waving a magic wand and making it disappear all our problems will suddenly be fixed! Of course, that can’t and won’t happen, simply because that’s not the underlying issue. I may have done some things in the past that may be seen as disrespectful, and I'm totally willing to throw my hands up and apologise (I can remember one thing in particular) for what I had said, so that I can be proactive in bettering the community.

Some of you might not have agreed entirely with what I said, but at this point it doesn’t really matter anymore. Myth summed up his post entirely at the end, and THAT is what you should focus on. Respect one another. Communicate. These are the biggest things that members of this community need to be proactive in, instead of these berating comments that I’ve seen and heard of Myth getting for his post. It’s stupid, childish, immature and completely misses the entire point of his post. Even if the intent 'wasn't' to exactly berate him, some of the impressions that people have gotten from his post have made him look like a total tool. It's not right.

Respect. Communication.

That is all that matters, and that is the only thing that will plaster up the cracks.

[Diss Order]

I don't really understand any of this stuff, but I've chatted with you guys on Skype all of two times, and already I'm in that Circuitfry thing -- which, by the way, I'm not even sure is serious or not because I'm so puerile! Ugh. Beginners' luck, I guess. As many apologies to Diss Order and the MLR chat as necessary. Poor excuse, but: I'm still sizing up the demeanor of rapport here.

The Google doc file in the startpost is just a silly little thing, and that's not really what this thread is about. Don't worry.

On-topic:
Sorry for over-emphasizing the porn part, it's not even my main issue so I don't know why I'm stressing it so much.

The main, underlying frustration for me is... I always miss out on everything, and I feel like I'm always left out. It took me 4 months to realize that the Megaskype actually isn't the main MLR skypechat (and I'm sorry I told people to stop posting r34... I simply didn't know there were other chats I could go to). If I ask a question on Skype, I mostly get vague answers, and most of the times I end up having KOR explain how stuff works to me, because it seems the community as a whole just expects me to KNOW it. I never entered a Toastbeard, I never finish my music (I only got 2 tracks online while I've spent an average of at least ~2 hours per day in a DAW for the past 6 or 7 months), I never participated to a remix war, I only recently found out about the bronies for charity thing... I always have to chase people around if I want to find stuff out. Nobody ever just messages me, or contacts me about anything, or just says 'hello' to have a chat. It's always the other way around, and every time I contact any one of you it always feels like I'm bothering you and taking away precious time that could be spent on other, more useful things...

Me being a very clumsy and socially insecure person probably plays a big part in this, but I can't help it. It's who I am. It also makes me a very easy troll target. I find it hard to understand irony and sarcasm in real-life, but then I still have facial expressions and a tone of one's voice as a tool to find out. On the internet, which is mostly text based (AND ENGLISH... English really is the bane of my existence), I SIMPLY DON'T KNOW! If someone tells me I suck, or tells me 'your opinions are bad and you should feel bad', I ALWAYS take it seriously. My mind just does that. If I'm being trolled or if someone is playing a joke on me, I always find out afterwards... But when someone is actually doing it, I don't have the slightest clue. And this can easily end up in me getting all frustrated, angry and nerdrage on your flank, while you probably didn't even mean any harm... Heck, I posted a preview in IRC several months ago and someone asked me what I was thinking, and it was unbearable to listen to... I still don't know if that was a joke (it probably was), but it made me ditch the project, and I was seriously depressed about it for about a week. And then the next week I regret ditching it and felt bad about it all over again.

See, I'm not expecting you guys to change the behavior of an entire chatroom when I enter, or.. I dont know, I'm not crying for attention or blaming anything on you. My problem is probably solely inside my head. All I expect from you is to know this and keep it in mind... That's all.

Sorry for the inconvenience my presence has caused so far, but... I always, 24/7, try to be a helpful, kind and generous person. But it occurs SO much that I end up being misunderstood in an argument, or that I completely misinterpret someone's intentions, and then end up in a fight or yelling at someone and... It's easy for me to get an entire chatroom upset with me. And then when I leave, everyone has the impression that I'm some kind of loudmouthed internet asshole that's on a hate-crusade against 'furfags' and other 'creepy' things. I realize this, and it hurts. I really spend so much effort in making a good reputation for myself as being kind and helpful, and then 1 little incident blows up and I'm on the bottom of the social ladder again. Which probably isn't even the case, but that's what it feels like to me...

Honestly, I don't even know why I haven't been banned yet (there were some occasions in which I even expected to be banned, the fight in the prelisteners thread for example...). I'm so frustrated with this community, but I now realize that I should be grateful for still being allowed to hang out here, and grateful that people still tolerate me in their chats and streams.

Sorry if I ever judged any one of you, sorry if I insulted anyone, sorry if I caused a shitstorm about nothing, sorry if I ruined your day, sorry if I seemed homophobic or disapproving of your orientation... Sorry for being a pain in the ass.

Diss Order out...