<Pony><Original><Orchestral>

[JOrchestration]

Here is the first part (the intro) to a series of pieces that will utilize a various number of instruments and voice types (if I could only find collaborators!)

I present for critique: Trepidation of Ascension - https://pony.fm/tracks/2013-trepidation ... ension-pt1

[Callenby]

I'm focused on a million things right now, but here's some quick feedback.

First and foremost, work on the strings (the oboe as well). It doesn't sound like a particularly excellent library you're using, but if it still has automation then use that more. They are quite clearly rendered by machine, especially the transitions between notes. There's no natural swell or anything to them currently.

Bring down the glockenspiel a bit, either through simple volume or, if you're feeling daring, by EQing it a bit. Right now it's too sharp and it gets a little distracting (particularly at 1:30 or so).

Overall, I'd focus more on consistency as well. By that I mean you already have quite a few motifs and instruments, but don't implement them as much as you could. 1:48 feels like not enough time to properly develop everything. Consider making it longer.

That's all I got right now.

[JOrchestration]

Alrighty! Let me provide some context for clarity's sake:

1. The samples I am using are the Hollywood Gold Strings, Hollywood Gold Woodwinds, Kontakt 3.5's Glock, and Akoustik Piano's Concert Grand D. They aren't low quality, but they aren't top line by any means either. On some happy day I'll be able to jump on Komplete (9 or 10) and start getting libraries for Kontakt 5 (or 6, if it's out :D) that will be much richer and purposeful as I currently am lacking and solo strings of quality and a number of other things I would use extensively. This leads to my next point.

2. The reason the string work sounds odd is because, A: I wasn't aware that I had not fixed some of the slurred sections to be legato only, oops! B: I don't have any solo patches, so I can't very well make it sound as pure as a single instrument. As it stands, this piece is one English Horn, six cellos, one piano, and one glock player on a practical level. On a composition level it is written for only one cello.

3. You mentioned that the length is odd for having three distinct motifs and trying to develop them, and this caught me off guard at first. Mostly, this was strange to me due to the fact that I mention above that it is the introduction to the longer piece(s), so it isn't finished fully. I recognize that it is a bit cluttered, but for the sake of instrument introduction and balancing, I was willing to accept that until I could work into the meat of the music, further exposition.

I did correct the swelling issue, by the way, as I had automated everything, but it wasn't quite stark enough in contrasts for my tastes either. Similarly, as I mentioned above, I also corrected some of the hiccups in note switching, but some of that is intentional so it may still sound somewhat off to you.


Having said all of that... thank you for your input! I was honestly a little surprised to see someone willing to actually give some solid critique here!

Feel free to toss more my way because it is wonderful to have someone willing to spend the time!
Here it a link to the new version: https://soundcloud.com/jorchestration/t ... nsion-pt-1

Cheers!

[Callenby]

I've never used EastWest's stuff, but from what I understand they should be capable of at least a little automation. Here's a link to a free solo cello VST I've used in the past. Being free, it's not super great, but it's better than nothing. If you're interested, I can recommend some quality strings (both solo and full section) and piano libraries. But definitely first see what you can do with what you already have (as I imagine they weren't cheap). You've chosen the path of an orchestral producer. It's rewarding, but sadly also super expensive.

You should update to the current version of Kontakt as soon as possible. So many things require at least version 4+ to even operate. If you wish to continue using VSTs then you should definitely upgrade.

Onto your new WIP:

My criticism for this is largely the same as for your intro, particularly with the transitions (for both the strings and English horn) as they unfortunately still sound rough to me. Smoothing those out would go a long way towards making them sound more realistic. I'm sure your EastWest has some tutorials or documents. Take a look at those, if you haven't already.

Again, pull back the glockenspiel. It's still unusually sharp, at least compared to the rest of the instruments, as though it's being recorded in a completely different setting than the rest of the instruments. It's like there's a piano playing in front of a cello section (which is perfectly fine) but then there's a glockenspiel performer off to the side who's cutting into things. Maybe it will be fine if and when you get a solo cello VST for this, but for now it's a wee bit distracting. Maybe that doesn't seem important, but when you're going for a traditional orchestral arrangement, it's a good idea to make it as authentic sounding as possible. That is, as though there were actual performers playing it together in a recording session or concert.

The strings at 0:30 are also hard to distinguish; they're overpowered out a bit by the piano. Then, after 1:10 things get a little confused and the English horn is entirely drowned out. This can probably be solved simply by spending more time mixing. I can tell you from personal experience that mixing is no fun at all, but it's necessary. The more instruments you have also means the more balancing you need to do. Try panning things apart more, as that might help too. But first, switch to a solo cello VST as soon as possible, because mixing with that is a whole other thing than mixing with an entire cello section. They are two different styles and so cannot be treated the exact same way.

Otherwise, it felt like it was a decent enough length this time around. Progress, but not quite done, methinks.

Wavesfactory has a super cheap glockenspiel that is quite a bit better than Kontakt's. And I know of some even better (though more expensive ones), if you want to take a look at those.

One last thing. You can easily embed Soundcloud files by simply surrounding your link with [soundcloud][/soundcloud] or by clicking the 'soundcloud' button in the editor.

[JOrchestration]

Again, thanks for the quick reply! I'll check this out later, in full, when I am actually at my desk!

As far as now... yes, sadly, I have many interests besides just orchestral, but orchestral has always been my aim and, yes, it is quite expensive if a person like the SyntheticOrchestra's Blake is an example. Alas...

As an aside to the structure of all of this and extending my library for solo instruments, you mentioned mixing, and that is something I have always struggled with. I understand well the typical orchestral setting and instrument placement and could do so easily with live performers, but getting the sounds to sit just right in a mix is a pain! This is especially true when I use vocalists as they tend to rest "on top of" the mix instead of inside of it. Do you have any tips on how to properly EQ a voice into the mix other than just trial and error because I know that there are methods of setting space up for each instrument, but I can never seem to just get each one on point.

[CitricAcid]

Again, thanks for the quick reply! I'll check this out later, in full, when I am actually at my desk!

As far as now... yes, sadly, I have many interests besides just orchestral, but orchestral has always been my aim and, yes, it is quite expensive if a person like the SyntheticOrchestra's Blake is an example. Alas...

As an aside to the structure of all of this and extending my library for solo instruments, you mentioned mixing, and that is something I have always struggled with. I understand well the typical orchestral setting and instrument placement and could do so easily with live performers, but getting the sounds to sit just right in a mix is a pain! This is especially true when I use vocalists as they tend to rest "on top of" the mix instead of inside of it. Do you have any tips on how to properly EQ a voice into the mix other than just trial and error because I know that there are methods of setting space up for each instrument, but I can never seem to just get each one on point.

I've done only minimal mixing of vocals, but I know that some techniques include sidechaining the vocals, applying one reverb to the whole ensemble including the vocal, and otherwise leaving lots of room in the mid range when mixing everything else. I wouldn't expect to EQ the vocal itself very much except to remove any colorization that your microhpone added to it.

This YouTube channel has tons of professional mixing advice that you may find useful. I'm sure he's done many videos on mixing vocals.

[Callenby]

Also check out MLR's very own guide. Section 7 in particular has some material on vocal mixing. Vocals are not something I have a ton of experience with, either, but there are plenty of others here who do so definitely ask around.

[JOrchestration]

-_- Kontakt is the limiting factor here. I really, really wish I could convince myself to lay down the money to upgrade to Komplete 9 (with Kontakt 5 as a part of that, of course), but I feel like Kontakt 6 will be swinging around relatively soon along with Komplete 10, so I just can't yet, which is a bummer since I really would love to have a solo cello of some kind that sounds decent!

Similarly, I am curious about how you would go about clean up the transitions in my solo English Horn. I have an extensive set of samples in this particular VST grouping, but I don't know exactly what you are looking for in terms of note transition. What about it is bothering you most?

[Callenby]

Well, Komplete 9 came out just a few months ago (in December, I think) so it should be a while before they release 10. I think you should switch over as soon as you can because you're really limiting your options by sticking with such an outdated version.

What I meant was that it sometimes doesn't sound like an actual human being could perform it in the say way you automate it. For example, at about 1:10 there's a very sudden, very unusual swell. I don't have Hollywood Gold so I don't know the exact way it operates, but it should be capable of more realistic swells and diminuendos. Try watching this tutorial starting at 4:45. I know it's for a different VST made by a different company, but it still shows you some of the automation the composer uses to make it sound authentic.

It shows just the Modulation controller, but it probably also has automation on the Expression controller as well. Fortunately, you can often use the exact same automation for both, so just copy and paste what you write in the Mod lane.

[JOrchestration]

I'm going to be completely honest with you right now.

I just read through my manuals for the fifth, or so, time, and I just now realized I actually have been automating wrong from when I started working in Reaper! I was adjusting volume when I was intending to adjust expression! Thank you so much for pushing me to check my work more thoroughly!

Here is what it sounds like a little more accurately corrected. Still not perfect, but at least it is a start.

https://soundcloud.com/jorchestration/trepidation-of-ascension-pt-1

[Callenby]

That's okay, we've all made silly mistakes (I most certainly have).

Hear how much better the transitions are now? It's not quite 100% (the strings swell a hair too much at the section starting 0:37. Try keeping the amount of swells you have, but make them less overt) but it's still a definite improvement. Don't worry, though, because automation is something you just have to get a feeling for. Keep practicing and it'll come naturally in no time.

The glock also sounds a lot better this time. It's providing color and not getting in the way - exactly as it should be (at least in a piece like this).

Nice work!

[JOrchestration]

I'll update this when I have moved on to extending this into its actual development, recap, etc. I plan to make this into the opening of sorts for a ten to twelve minute full orchestral piece, so it will likely change a lot between then and now as I need to re-voice or adjust, but that is when I'll really need some feedback.

As a side note, what do you typically create for? Just for yourself? A YouTube channel or series? Actual orchestras? I am curious about what motivates others to delve into this when there may be a lot of cost but little gain. For me? I just like the act of creating and bettering my craft. Plus, I also will occasionally work for short films, series, and other such stuff that needs music, so the practice of bouncing ideas off of you guys has been wonderful for forcing me to advance my methods.

[Callenby]

As you can see in my signature, I have a YouTube channel, which is my way of giving back to a community I've taken so much from. I do not currently have access to an orchestra so it's also a handy way of practicing my art.

I'll stop there because that's more of a question for this thread.