Orchestral - I just don't get it

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Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby MixolydianPony » 19 Jan 2013 21:42

Composing it, that is. It completely eludes me. I can write pop/rock stuff. It's simple -- start with either lyrics, or a melody, or a guitar or piano riff or something, put the lyrics over top of it, and work from there. Maybe not easy to master, but easy to grasp.

I don't know why, but I just can't write anything orchestral. I don't know if it's the exponentially greater possibilities that overwhelm the creative side of me, or what, but I just don't know where to begin. I've tried starting with a melody, building around that, I've tried starting with a chord progression, but for some reason, it all turns out awful.

I'm more confused than frustrated. I understand rock/pop/jazz, etc., why can't I understand orchestral composition?

I've analyzed scores, I can look at what's happening and understand how it relates, but I can't produce that. The melody weaves in and out of the different instruments, everything seems to flow so well. Obviously, it's a matter of practice, but what should I practice? Would it make sense to start with a woodwind trio, write a few songs for that, then move on to a quintet, gradually building up to a full orchestra as I write more and more pieces solely for practice?

This is rambling, and there's more words here than I wanted to throw at you guys, but I really don't know how else to put it. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

tl;dr;

I can write pop/rock/jazz, but not orchestral. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. What should I practice?
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Re: Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby CaptainFluffatun » 19 Jan 2013 22:23

With orchestral, I find some amount of my inspiration in the different articulations. Drop a sweet legato melody into a baller-ass staccato phrase and you have a recipe for sexually attractive musacks.

It's also important to learn how the different instruments available to you work best:

Dis is what I was gonna say wrote:Woodwinds - versatile; they can play sweet melodies and shrill textures, or have little flourishes during another section's part. While they can add some supporting bass, they aren't too SOLIDLY bassy, and thus you might think twice about having your woodwinds do the bassline. Woodwinds can be played very quickly, allowing for interesting runs and builds.


I started to type that up when I realized that the strings and the brass can both pretty much do anything. It all depends on what timbre you want your melody to have.





Throughout all this rambling, I realize I don't know what I'm talking about because I just let the music come and don't know much theory.

(For a more detailed guide on how to woodwind, check out this awesome handy guide by our own talented Dr. Dissonance)
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Re: Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby CaptainFluffatun » 19 Jan 2013 22:24

But yeah I just plop notes down and then musacks. Sorry I'm no help.
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Re: Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby Callenby » 19 Jan 2013 22:28

First of all, as I'm sure you know, there are already a couple of threads on this subject.

Second, I hesitate a little before posting because I by no means can offer you the kind of expertise you're looking for. But maybe as someone who's also interested in writing orchestral music I can still provide something.

Do not feel bad about being exasperated! I'm right there in the boat with you on this. A full-piece orchestra is a combination of many, many voices, often all playing at the same time; easily more than pop, jazz, etc. usually have. So learning how to strike the balance of all the roles in orchestral music is inherently trickier than those genres. I just bought a textbook about this very subject. I mean, literally, it was the day before yesterday. It cost $80 and has nearly 800 pages. That right there ought to give you an idea about how orchestration is not such a simple feat. It takes years to master.

I think you have the exact right idea: start out small and work your way up to more complex instrumentation, doing what you can with just a handful of different "voices". By all means, start with a woodwind trio or string quartet or something (just remember that each instrument and grouping has their own strengths and weaknesses). Once you build up your confidence with that you can look to writing for larger and more complex instrumentation.
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Re: Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby PonE-Sharp » 19 Jan 2013 22:59

Bro, I wish I could switch places with you. I can only make orchestral, but want to make rock/pop. As far as advice, I'm afraid I can only direct you to Dr. Dissonance, as my orchestral experience just comes from playing around and experimenting. He's got a huge orchestral thread somewhere here.
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Re: Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby Stu Beef » 20 Jan 2013 02:37

Starting small and going big is a good plan I think. I remember talking to a bud who's trying to get into composition and we basically agreed that the hardest part is the orchestration. Man, I can think of a million little melodies, but distributing that among a massive ensemble is not easy! I would say, do what (some, alot?) of people do and just start with the basic idea. Maybe bang out a motif on the piano and from there develop that into a full fledged musical phrase/section. Don't even really worry about who is gonna play what, just have the idea. If you're still stumped on how to give that to a whole orchestra, keep going. Hopefully as you go along you start to hear it in your head how you want it to sound. Maybe you tell yourself "ohh, this snippet would sound great with a flute" or whatever, and you make sure to use it to that effect whenever it shows up.

Also, you've analyzed scores, but have you transcribed a score? To me, that honestly sounds like a massive pain (and I likely won't bother unless I want to get serious about this kind of composition), but if you wanna get as much as you can as quickly as you can I think it would help. Pick some chunk from a piece you like and just listen to it a bunch of times, trying to pick out what is happening in the literal sense and to what effect did the composer use it, then recreate that yourself (using whatever it is you use). Then maybe...recreate that in a bunch of different contexts until whatever effect you were trying to learn becomes another tool you are ready to whip out whenever you feel the need arise. Rinse and repeat.
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Re: Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby itroitnyah » 20 Jan 2013 07:55

Rock and pop music generally have 1 melody playing at a time with a bass lower down to make things happen. Orchestral is all about harmony and stuff happening during the entire time. So just start by putting down a melody, and then taking another instrument, putting down a melody, and just playing around with it until it sounds right. Don't be afraid to take your time and listen closely to make sure that it sounds good. But I would probably stay away from putting notes of different instruments in the same octave note, especially if they have similar or the same timbres. Like, don't place a violin note on D5 and a flute note on D5 at the same time. I think that might result in disaster, but I could be wrong. It may limit you since you might have 3 melodies playing on 3 different instruments, which might be hard to get to sound right, but that's what orchestral is. Hard to compose.

Anyways, what I said may not have been 100% correct, but I'm sure somebody will correct me if they find something wrong with it
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Re: Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby Fimbulin » 20 Jan 2013 08:32

pop rock and stuff like that is built around simple chord progressions (mostly). Orchestral scores are usually much more complex. Dr. Dissonance understands it better than most people here because he has applied himself to studying it in college level classes. I'm taking college classes too, and it makes sense to me. All I can say is that you are used to the more simple structures of modern music but fail on the advanced theory side of things. Do you understand what an appogiatura, hemiola, or phrygian half cadence is or what the lowest note a viola can hit is? One you start learning these things everything else will begin to fit in it's place.

I advise you to start with counterpoint. Learn it. Master it. Everything else will begin to make sense. Melodies will flow consonant with eachother.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby Dr_Dissonance » 20 Jan 2013 08:44

Okay, so I started replying and then this happened:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/12pv ... Qt5v8/edit

That should help you along your way!
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Re: Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby topitmunkeydog » 20 Jan 2013 08:50

I agree to start with one instrument and progress into the whole enchilada. Try piano for starters though. Do you play piano? Learning piano makes orchestral composition a bit easier
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Re: Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby Lavender_Harmony » 20 Jan 2013 11:47

Orchestral took me a long time to get. I actually went to university to study it, and it was only in my final year did I eventually start to properly grasp it.

Dr Dissonances guide is a really good starting point, but there are other aspects you will need to take into consideration, that he hasn't mentioned yet. Articulations are incredibly important, use of pizzicato, staccato, trills, tremolo and so forth to help enhance the textures you create. It is all very akin to ambient music in my experience, where the sound design isn't so much in the synth design, but more in the layout of your timbres. Listening to pieces whilst following the score is a good idea, looking for parts of the piece you enjoy the most, but that can take a long time to build up a catalog of sounds you appreciate. Learning all about articulations, and familiarising yourself with each and every sound in the orchestra is something that will come eventually, and from that creating colours and textures will be much easier. To use Dr D's painter analogy, you don't start out knowing how to create all the colours, and sometimes you make something unexpectedly and appreciate it, but sometimes the colours won't be right, and you can't figure out why. In time, you'll learn why, and know how to create these colours with ease, and then know which ones go together best.
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Re: Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby MixolydianPony » 20 Jan 2013 11:55

I've got a fair grasp of the different instruments... I played clarinet for 8 years in various ensembles and school bands. Never been near a string section, but I've played guitar, so I sorta kinda get those from a theoretical perspective. I don't know exact ranges, but I know timbres, and what each instrument finds easy or difficult technically.

I'm currently attempting to teach myself piano. Not going too well.

Thanks for all the advice, I'll mull this over for a few days and then start working on the things suggested.

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Re: Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby Fimbulin » 20 Jan 2013 13:18

Dr_Dissonance wrote:Okay, so I started replying and then this happened:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/12pv ... Qt5v8/edit

That should help you along your way!


Heroically saving people from having to learn theory and analysis! I mean, it's true enough that you don't need the training, but I'd still recommend learning it if you are capable. Take, for instance, Danny Elfman. He got into the professional world of film and video game composition with almost no theory training. Then there is John Williams, known for everything from Schindler's List to Batman. John Williams even conducts his own works. Both of them score movies, but by judging their presence in the film industry, theory training wins out in the end and makes for more widely accepted and more memorable music.

Dr. Dissonance, while I agree with most of what you've said here, I still disagree on a few probably insignificant points, such as:
Dr_Dissonance wrote:If you want to delve deeper, feel free, but you’ll get more from the bigger picture than the tiny details.
Learn those tiny details and implement them in your own way into your music! Implement those concepts and develop yourself to become not only a better score writer, but a better musician in general!

Dr_Dissonance wrote:With a single chord.
O_o I've struggled in the past with balancing everything. I've never thought of trying this before. Best advice I've heard all day! Thank you.
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Re: Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby Pimps_McGee » 20 Jan 2013 16:22

If you need another way of looking at it I would recommend looking at your range of instruments as though they were a synthesizer. You should be trying to create sonorities through various means of unison and harmony (be aware not everything has to be in harmony). A group that has the melody should typically have all the voices be in unison.

Let's say you are working on a melody in the lower tenors of a woodwind section (i.e. tenor saxophones, bassoon, and possibly clarinets). Suddenly you decide that, hey, this could use some more power in the bass range. Well you're are given a range of choices; tubas, double bass, or bass clarinets. You probably would want to keep the reed texture so bass clarinets would work well since they are woodwinds as well. This type of scenario can apply to many different instrumentations and it really depends on what you want the overall sound of the group to be.

There are many MANY different ways to play a note and many MANY terms that have been made to describe it. Basically these terms are like settings on an ADSR.

Staccato (symbol .) - literally means cut short crisply:detached.
On an ADSR, short attack, short decay, minimal sustain, and minimal release.

Marcato (symbol ^) - literally means with strong accentuation.
On an ADSR, short attack, short decay, 3/4 sustain, and short release.

Legato (symbol -) - literally means in a smooth, even style without any noticeable break between the notes.
On an ADSR, regular or slow attack, minimal decay, full sustain, and long release.

Pizzicato (symbol varies) - literally means played by plucking rather than bowing the strings (don't take this as meaning can only be played strings; other instruments can imitate this sound).
On an ADSR, short attack, short decay, 1-2/4 sustain, and short release.

Now there are plenty of other techniques used in composition (I would recommend learning about sforzando, forte-piano, and fermatas) but those are the essentials.

I would recommend listening to something more modern than what is typically recommended. I mean I love Wagner's Elsa's Procession to the Cathedral as much as the next guy (in fact I believe its probably one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever written) but MANY innovations in composition have occurred since romanticism.

Wind Ensemble groups (basically brass, woodwinds, and percussion) have been emerging quite prominently in the last decade and many new wonderful pieces have come as such. I would definately recommend the following.

John Mackey (http://www.ostimusic.com/) - Favorites: Redline Tango, Asphalt Cocktail, and Aurora Awakes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQNGkDbkzxc

Frank Ticheli (http://www.manhattanbeachmusiconline.co ... ndex2.html) - Favorites: Vesuvius, Fortress, and Blue Shades
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbkR_y_QMnw

Steven Bryant personal favorite (http://www.stevenbryant.com) - Favorites: ECSTATIC WATERS, RedLine, and Solace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HmJ1Hwkr94

Those were all people that are currently alive. Some of the more famous dead ones include; Percy Grainger, Gustav Holst, and obviously John Phillip Sousa

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Re: Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby Dr_Dissonance » 20 Jan 2013 18:57

Lavender is right. Once you've gotten to grips with the basics, articulations and techniques are definitely something you should read up on.

MixolydianPony wrote:And Dr. D -- Dear Luna. Thank you. T.T You should post that in a thread here on the forum.

No problem! Always happy to help.
Oh and there was mention of learning piano to get a better idea. Whilst learning piano is cool, don't use it as a gateway to learning orchestral. You'll end up writing orchestral music that sounds like it was written at the piano...:P
That's why Chopin's piano works are amazing, but his orchestral sucks.

Fimbulin wrote:Learn those tiny details and implement them in your own way into your music! Implement those concepts and develop yourself to become not only a better score writer, but a better musician in general!


I agree with that, but for someone just starting off with orchestral, is that the best method?

And finally, just to pick on the last guy:
Pimps_McGee wrote:Legato (symbol -)

That's the symbol for 'Tenuto'. Legato is shown via phrase marks.
Pimps_McGee wrote:Pizzicato (symbol varies)

The symbol is always the word 'pizz.'. To return to the bow, you use the word 'arco'.
Pimps_McGee wrote:I would recommend listening to something more modern than what is typically recommended.

I'd always recommend the works of Lang, Sciarrino, Czernowin and Harvey! But having a wide range of music to study is always great. If you do get the score for a soundtrack, analyse that if you want!
But all your recommendations are pretty good too. :P
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Re: Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby Fimbulin » 20 Jan 2013 20:17

Dr_Dissonance wrote:I agree with that, but for someone just starting off with orchestral, is that the best method?

Do you always have to make so much sense? xD
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Re: Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby MixolydianPony » 20 Jan 2013 22:35

Thanks for all of the advice, it's much appreciated. I'm sure you'll see how well it helps relatively soon, if you bother to follow my music at all. :3
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Re: Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby v.lossity » 31 Jan 2013 21:37

I am just now getting into orchestral, but let me tell youthat music theory, while being extremely useful and awesome and stuff is (as Dr. D said) apparently just as important as timbre. I spend so much time just rearranging intervals, trading around who gets what notes, inverting chords, etc compared to how much time I spend actually coming up with new melody/harmony/etc.

As far as theory goes, I would look into counterpoint. Its a simple idea that goes a looooong way. I've found its a great tool to change up boring chords.

A couple favorite composers Tchaikovsky, Ralph Vaughan Williams, Wagner, Mussogorsky, Brahms, Mozart, etc etc etc
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Re: Orchestral - I just don't get it

Postby FIMprov » 07 Feb 2013 20:43

itroitnyah wrote:I would probably stay away from putting notes of different instruments in the same octave note, especially if they have similar or the same timbres. Like, don't place a violin note on D5 and a flute note on D5 at the same time. I think that might result in disaster, but I could be wrong. It may limit you since you might have 3 melodies playing on 3 different instruments, which might be hard to get to sound right, but that's what orchestral is. Hard to compose.

Anyways, what I said may not have been 100% correct, but I'm sure somebody will correct me if they find something wrong with it


Okay, I've cut this quote down to a manageable length. This is actually not really correct, and I'm not sure why nobody else caught it. Think of the practice described here as layering synthesizers: by blending two sounds, you can create one interesting new one. Of course, you can't pair just any two instruments and expect it to sound good. Experiment a little. It's not a terribly common practice, but it is by no means wrong. I'll edit this post with an update once I find a good example.
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