Subjectiveness of music or something.

[Random111223]

let's have a good ol' philosophy thread

I've been wondering how the characteristics of music are perceived by different people. Does culture and enviroment affect completely a person's concept of creepy/happy/dark (etc) music? Or is there something natural to the types of music which makes them such?
For example: A child is forced to listen to cheerful major-scaled music and he is exposed to terrifying videos at the same time. Does he grow up to find major-scaled music very dark like we do for minor-scaled music? Probably yes, but is this affected entirely by experiences? I haven't read about this so i have no idea. If there IS a natural cause, why? Why would our genes be developed to find something cheerful/creepy with subtle tonal changes?

[the4thImpulse]

Does culture and enviroment affect completely a person's concept of creepy/happy/dark (etc) music? Or is there something natural to the types of music which makes them such?

I think our personal perceptions of music are based much more on the people immediately around us rather some natural method that makes everyone feel the same way. Its starts from where were exposed to music and whats exposing us to it. If a good friend of yours shows you a completely new genre you are more likely going to like it then if someone you hate shows you the same tune. When you look at friend circles in highschool people stick with people who share the same interests as them, this certinly includes music. There are diffrences of course but people who like rock music will more likely be friends with people who like rock rather then hip hop.

I know from a church perspective back 40 years ago when North American churchs were first introducing drum kits and electric guitars into their services, the older generations (those over 45) hated it and some even said its 'devil' music/sounds and the youger generation (under 30) loved it. In modern times you almost always see electric guitars and drum kits in church. I think thats a great example of the way people influence each others perception of music.

I believe there is a bit of a natural feeling towards diffrent chords but the people around have a bigger effect on us today.

[CommandSpry]

It's all a part of the psychology, and how you're raised, but it also has to do with the composition itself.

For example I know many guys who, when hearing Classical music, say it's very intimidating and archaic, while I like many others really enjoy classical music and find it calming, grand, sometimes suspensful and sometimes very cheerful..it's a matter of when/how you are introduced to it.

Many times a person is more likely to dislike a genre because of the opinion of the group whilst he's being introduced to it, for example, if someone wants to check out dubstep, and people are like "DON'T LISTEN TO SKRILLEX ITS MAINSTREAM SHIT, CHECK OUT X and Y and Z", chanses are that when the guy eventually does check out Skrillex, he will think it's a mainstream piece of crap.

But I'm going off topic here into taste territory, I do think that to some degree happy/sad, scary/cheery music is determined by the way you're being introduced to, but I don't think many people will find very high notes or arpeggios very frightening or booming bass with a wind and weird noise sound effect calming, to some degree, it's like slow/fast, silent/loud music; it's just how it is and percieved by everyone

[CWeissRun]

Many times a person is more likely to dislike a genre because of the opinion of the group whilst he's being introduced to it, for example, if someone wants to check out dubstep, and people are like "DON'T LISTEN TO SKRILLEX ITS MAINSTREAM SHIT, CHECK OUT X and Y and Z", chanses are that when the guy eventually does check out Skrillex, he will think it's a mainstream piece of crap.

Aye, very true. I've learned that when getting any suggestions from friends on what to listen to, I have to think like I found it myself to keep my opinion from being swayed too much (i.e. "My friends like it, so I probably should too).

[colortwelve]

Sound has a few inherent qualities, a few of which we've still got leftover from ye olde evolution - we, as humans, tend to associate certain types of sound with certain mental/emotional states, just as we did when doing so was necessary for survival.

Thus, while subjective taste, culture, etc. can influence someone's perception of a song, the inherent qualities of the sound used, the structure (regular structures tend to be easier to listen to than ones that go all over and never have any recurring passages), and various other factors already have the ability to make a certain impression upon the listener.

The discrepancy here is that modern society tends to place all of the importance on one's taste - and as a casualty of this, nothing is ever inherently good, bad, happy, sad, or anything else anymore. Nothing is objective, because everyone sees and hears differently, and it's one's own personal opinions and perceptions that make up what is now considered the most valid sort of worldview - the relativistic one.

[Overkillius]

I think about this so much every day.

Yes, it appears that most music is INCREDIBLY subjective, but there does seem to be a line where there are sounds people want to hear and sounds people don't want to hear.

First of all there are some noises that are just so harsh that people don't want to listen to them, particularly VERY LOUD noises.

I'm trying to type a billion other things but that isn't quite working out, so I'm just going to keep this post simple instead of ranting for paragraphs.

What do you guys think about Dissonance? I've personally been developing a taste for insane amounts of it this past year, but you could still argue that it is a harsh noise that people don't want to hear. It is just really interesting to listen to, and it isn't exactly unhealthy for you; people put themselves through worse pain. So, why do some people not like it?

is it really just taste or some physical phenomenon?

I'm sure I'll wake up later today and wonder what the heck I was thinking, ohwell!

[Navron]

Think of dissonance as you would walking down a sidewalk.

The sidewalk is your root key, and the notes that go well with it.

The street is all the notes that don't go with the root key.

Having a dissonant note creates conflict, such as you're balancing on the curb of the sidewalk. This conflict makes people uneasy. They don't want to see you fall on the street. They'd much rather see you safe along the sidewalk, but since you're teetering on the edge it creates apprehension that you won't stay safe.

Basically dissonance makes people uneasy because it takes them from listening to something they know, and tugging them into a place they don't want to go.

[Dr_Dissonance]

Music is incredibly subjective, that's why tuning systems are different throughout the world!

Take this for example:



This is the equivalent of music in a Major key in Bali...

IS IT HAPPY TO YOU???

So yeah, I'm not going to make a big paragraph, that is my evidence, done and done!

[Overkillius]

Well I understand what Dr Dissonance and navy are saying, and I think I agree with both really. I don't think that the video Dr. Dissonance linked is really harsh in any way though, unless you have "perfect pitch" and cringe every time something is out of A440 equal temperament.

I'm not really questioning the fact that music is subjective, I'm questioning the extent to which that subjectivity extends to. I guess I might be saying that music is like food. It is really different from culture to culture and there are a lot of varying tastes. But there are some things that a human could ingest that they won't enjoy, like sand paper. I feel like dissonance can sometimes be like eating sand paper, particularly chords like C,C#,G or something somewhat resembling that.

[Emotionatic]

To a point it is subjective. But really there are naturally soothing/grating sounds. And quality is not necessarily subjective.

[thatguyzeke]

Well subjectivity does exist, obviously, but it can only go so far.

Mathematics and go hand in hand in so ways, and while taste and subjectivity play a role I'm sure there are tones or chords that almost no culture enjoys. Or even some chords or keys that convey the same feeling for a very large variety of people, even across cultures.

Also, I think it would be interesting to see how different cultures with different tuning systems are different at a biological level. Is there a fundamental difference in the brain wiring that develops and causes us to view music differently if we grew up in one culture or another?