The Loudness War (overcompression in music)

[MixolydianPony]

I put this in the technique forum because it's related to compression and mastering. Perhaps this discussion would be better in the community forum, so if I am in error, please move it.

=====

Is anyone else frustrated by, or even aware of, this trend called the "Loudness War?"

Essentially, the term describes the fact that music for a while now (probably since the early 90's) has been becoming more and more compressed and loud, leaving listeners with music that has no dynamic variance and occasionally becomes slightly distorted. I'm bad at explaining things, so...

LINKY-DINKS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war
http://www.npr.org/2009/12/31/122114058/the-loudness-wars-why-music-sounds-worse
http://musicmachinery.com/2009/03/23/the-loudness-war/

Frankly, this pisses me off. What pisses me off even more is that I'm going to be a professional audio engineer, and clients are going to demand this sort of nonsense so I'll have to either contribute to this mess or go hungry.

Anyone else care to share their thoughts on the matter?

[colortwelve]

See, the thing is, a good audio engineer can get the modern requisite loudness out of a track without distorting it. The Loudness War is just a trend of overcompression, but compression is only one part of mastering, and a good engineer will recognize that. So, in your case, I'd just hope to land someone who does.

[ChromaticChaosPony]

I'm not a professional audio engineer, and am nowhere near becoming one. So my opinion probably isn't important.

I've never though of brick-walling a track as a good thing. Just one look at that type of audio spectrum/waveform/mixdown/whatever the hell it is called makes me want to puke. It looks like a sloppy mess of clipping, and in some cases sounds as such.

Mastering shouldn't be about loud. It should be about finalizing the song for everyone to hear. Brick-walling can lose the integrity of the sound.

[5COPY]

Neither have I ever had the thought of brick-walling a song as a good thing. I think it's an absurd and ridiculous thing. In the end it's the person with MP3 player or the guy at the speakers/mixer that's going to decide how loud the music should be anyway. If I want my music to be louder I'll simply turn up the volume. I see no need in compressing it. It's merly like just forcing your listeners to listen to your work on this specificly gain level.

So some people don't get it as loud as they want? Yeah that's their own fault for not getting more powerful systems that can go on higher volume levels. I really don't get it. Very often on TV commercials are always ridiculously louder than the actual shows, because they had it mastered to be this loud. It's pretty much just because the clients want to get as much attention as possible and they think they will gain that through loudness.

All I can say is that I agree with everything Mastering Engineer Greg Calbi says:

[the4thImpulse]

Like C12 said any mastering engineer worth his pay can easily keep tracks from distorting with all the new software and technology in most modern mastering equipment.


Talking about electronic music here..

If you can get your track as loud as possible then it willl likely be used by far many more DJs because everyones elses track is at its maxium volume. Yeah its disapointing, but its the way electronic music is now and if you hate that then you can make your music quiet, keep your dynamics, and watch as your track gets nowhere on beatport top 100 lists. Just my two bits.

[Navron]

There's a certain loudness in most professionally produced tracks that you know exactly where to set your speaker volume for 90% of your songs. For my car it's 30. For my iPod headphones it's 2 volume notches down from the maximum while running/exercising, and 3 notches down for general listening.

I aim to get my tracks at this same level.

Tracks that get above that level are the ones I call the loudness war, and is usually accompanied by curse words as I scramble to turn the volume down.

Most of my songs cannot reach this level, which is to be expected, because I'm not an audio engineer, but I will continue trying to reach that level without losing the dynamics of the song.

[Habanc]

I'm not a fan of brick-walling and squashing my sound to over-compressed bits, but let's face reality, it's here now and it's the way to do it.

Mastering is probably the least-practiced section of production, because it's not like everyday you get a chance to do it. For instance, I've heard of this amazing thing called a "Multiband Compressor" and I never use it because I simply don't have enough experience with mastering.

[ChocolateChicken]

Deadmau5 himself spoke about this "Loudness War" a few times in the past and even posted about it on his Facebook at one point last September. This is what he said (edited for language):

"HEY. dubstep, and other "OMG I GOTTA F*CKIN PUT A HUGE STUPID LIMITER / MAXIMIZER AT THE END OF MY SH*T" producers.... http://wimp.com/loudnesswar/ stop ruining music. seriously.

dont get me wrong, some dubstep is f*ckin amazing... but its REALLY rare that you actually hear dynamic in any of it.... its just balls to the wall brickwall limiters and more often than not over 50 percent of the track sits at a perfect 0db peak. which, like i said, kills the opportunity for any dynamic range.

music to my ears is about rhythm and melody... and if youre not mixing those 2 elements within a certain threshold... then you've basically just got one thing. noise." - End of quote


On the other hand, I've noticed that casual listeners actually do subconsciously judge a song by how loud it is in comparison to other songs. When they hear a song that is pretty quiet, they automatically think the quality isn't good before they even think about turning up the volume to hear it better.
I think there should be some dynamic range in every song, but not *that* much. FUR YER HEALTH.

Here's the link that deadmau5 posted, in case you missed it. I think it's very educational: wimp.com/loudnesswar

[Foxtrot89]

My unprofessional method is to get the general sound I want during mixing. After it sounds how I want it, I try to maximize the songs volume the best I can while losing as little detail as possible. My songs are generally quieter than commercial songs, so it's not really advisable to put my songs on a disc with most other tunes out there since the volume between mine and other folks' tracks is sometimes jarring. In my eyes (or ears) it doesn't matter how loud it is, so long as it sounds good.

That said, I've found non-electronic music more difficult to get louder while maintaining the punch. Electronic music can generally be pushed a bit harder the "real" music. Perhaps I just suck at mixing/mastering. I do know that I apparently like my songs with the drums front and center mixwise.

[Artimeus]

I hate the loudness war. If you know how compressors work, you know that they can kill dynamic range, especially when you brickwall an already normalized bounced track. It kills me. Now, bear in mind, compressing audio via the old tape method can actually sound great, as it adds warmth and stereo imaging better than a digital simulacrum can; this was back when going 'in the red' wasn't necessarily a bad thing, because it did not cause clipping, it simply physically compressed the audio in a harmonic way. Nowadays, you go in the red, you get clipping, distortion, and 'squashed' dynamic range.

I'm glad ChocolateChicken mentioned Joel, because that's exactly right. I believe that 'professional' commercial tracks these days are simply squashed too much, with no headroom for dynamics. Shame, that.

[Raddons]

Just normalize your track and leave the listener to turn up their volume. I love going through my music collection and listening to an album from the 60's after an album from this year and hearing the difference in volume and dynamics.

[Spirit]

I'm not a fan of brick-walling and squashing my sound to over-compressed bits, but let's face reality, it's here now and it's the way to do it.

NO, NO IT IS NOT
Tracks with Dynamics will always be one step ahead of the LOL, BRICKWALL BRIGADE
When playing out, if your constantly bashing between tracks at the 0dB limit, you're just gonna hurt ears and eventually the mix is gonna be weaker overall, If you have dynamics, it allows the audience a rest and also give each drop more weight

[Flutter Rex]

Knife Party got this problem even if they're making music, that is brickwall-resistant. Kick is so distorted I cannot even listen to my favourite tracks... ):
I do like brickwall patent (but good one!) in electronic music, as much as I like to listen some good old dynamics. But there are limits. If you destroying whole track by the pump, it's kind of pathetic.

I'm not a fan of brick-walling and squashing my sound to over-compressed bits, but let's face reality, it's here now and it's the way to do it.

You can still make a track loud enough and not brickwall it like a hurricane. It's a choice.

[soultensionbenjamin]

its funny sometimes you dont need compression sometimes you just need equalizer and a limiter and a multiband compressor to balance out the bands

[SilverLeaf.B]

I dislike the entire IDEA of brick-walling, and I hate it in reality even more. But yeah, there isn't anything anyone can do about it, unless someone can get all the artists in the world who ask their mastering engineers to do it to cut it out. And that's never going to happen, because somewhere it is written that louder is better. At that point, the music the artist makes is more of a product than art.

[the4thImpulse]

its funny sometimes you dont need compression sometimes you just need equalizer and a limiter and a multiband compressor to balance out the bands

Sorry, but you just contradicted yourself. I do know what your trying to say and can agree with it, sometimes you only need light compression/limiting if any at all but its much easier to put a well designed limiter on it and let your track shine with the rest of them.

I'm not a fan of brick-walling and squashing my sound to over-compressed bits, but let's face reality, it's here now and it's the way to do it.

NO, NO IT IS NOT
Tracks with Dynamics will always be one step ahead of the LOL, BRICKWALL BRIGADE
When playing out, if your constantly bashing between tracks at the 0dB limit, you're just gonna hurt ears and eventually the mix is gonna be weaker overall, If you have dynamics, it allows the audience a rest and also give each drop more weight

Habanc is right, if you want your music to stand up to everyone else in modern times then you need it to be played at their level. The whole mastering process is known as preparing the track for 'the masses' and that means making sure it will song good on all sound systems and that it can be played at a commercial level (volume). Who, when they're listening to their radio, wants to constantly turn the volume knob to keep the tracks at their desired volume? Same with CDs, Ipods, and DJs...

There have been many great advances in compression technology and with the proper knowledge you can keep dynamics and get your track up to that commercial standard. Brickwall limiting is extreme and often done wrong, yes, but again with proper knowledge it will be a tool you'll want for achieving that standard.

And when your writing music think about the fact that it will go through the 'modern mastering process' and you can easily write in a way that will compliment the inevitable mastering. I do this now and have found ways in the mixdown process to make the limiting much easier on my dynamics.

[JayB]

I like loudness. And I like to use a brickwall limiter at the end of my mastering chain. But for me there's no direct connection between loudness and a limiter, because loudness is a frequency based thing in the first place. If the frequency spectrum of your song is comparable to other productions (not too much bass, strong but airy highs, cut off subs - you get the point) you don't need to stress the limiter too hard to get your desired volume. With my tracks the gain reduction is usually somewhere between 1 and 4 dB, which is practically nothing. Still my tracks are loud enough to compete with "professional" productions.

[Spirit]

its funny sometimes you dont need compression sometimes you just need equalizer and a limiter and a multiband compressor to balance out the bands

Sorry, but you just contradicted yourself. I do know what your trying to say and can agree with it, sometimes you only need light compression/limiting if any at all but its much easier to put a well designed limiter on it and let your track shine with the rest of them.

I'm not a fan of brick-walling and squashing my sound to over-compressed bits, but let's face reality, it's here now and it's the way to do it.

NO, NO IT IS NOT
Tracks with Dynamics will always be one step ahead of the LOL, BRICKWALL BRIGADE
When playing out, if your constantly bashing between tracks at the 0dB limit, you're just gonna hurt ears and eventually the mix is gonna be weaker overall, If you have dynamics, it allows the audience a rest and also give each drop more weight

Habanc is right, if you want your music to stand up to everyone else in modern times then you need it to be played at their level. The whole mastering process is known as preparing the track for 'the masses' and that means making sure it will song good on all sound systems and that it can be played at a commercial level (volume). Who, when they're listening to their radio, wants to constantly turn the volume knob to keep the tracks at their desired volume? Same with CDs, Ipods, and DJs...

There have been many great advances in compression technology and with the proper knowledge you can keep dynamics and get your track up to that commercial standard. Brickwall limiting is extreme and often done wrong, yes, but again with proper knowledge it will be a tool you'll want for achieving that standard.

And when your writing music think about the fact that it will go through the 'modern mastering process' and you can easily write in a way that will compliment the inevitable mastering. I do this now and have found ways in the mixdown process to make the limiting much easier on my dynamics.

Im not saying don't make your track loud and master it to 0dB, however the subject of brickwalling your track pretty much removes any form of dynamic range in your music, in removing that range, the loud just isn't as loud. you're giving the listener a wall of sound at 0dB and with that, everything loses its weight that it carried in because your ears have adjusted to that sound.
I was kinda making a point of how it was said "Brickwalling is here now and thats how its done" Its not a good mindset to be in where you feel that a track should have little dynamics because in the end its gonna go through brickwall. always try and keep a good dynamic range in your track and try not to brick wall your elements. Unless that is the effect you're aiming for with your drop or whatever

[Navron]

A newbie will always have trouble getting their tracks loud, and yes, I am talking with brickwall limiting and maximizing.

New musicians just have too much going on frequency wise, much like how their tracks will sound very muddy.

When your track is full of those unneeded frequencies, your overall output is louder, despite the fact it doesn't "sound" louder. Thus when thrown into a mastering chain, despite the musician getting their song just below the clipping level, it will still sound much quieter than other songs.

You can use the reverse trick to keep dynamic parts of your song while at the same time achieving a higher output.

If you have a section you want quieter, fill in those frequencies. If you cut the subbass out of a pad during a drop to avoid it getting muddy, then throw those subbass frequencies back into the mix when you have just the pad only. The end result is you have just as much frequency output as your drop, but because it's just a fuller sounding pad, it won't actually sound louder, and will instead be quieter. When you add more instruments or move to a second drop, slowly take out those frequencies again.

The end result is you can brickwall your track without losing key dynamics in it.

[XXDarkShadow79XX]

I... don't claim to know too much about this stuff. But I do get what's going on.

And I can't say I really give a damn.

I mean yeah, I don't support brickwalling/mastering your tracks to 0db, but I think all that's happening is people are trying to keep things consistent, both in the tracks themselves and in the standards of music. And quite frankly, I kind of like that. And yes, there are probably 1,000 ways you guys could respond to this and tell me I'm wrong, but really, I just like to keep things simple.

And loud. ;)

EDIT: I meant to say that I don't support OVERcompression. I still like it when tracks are well compressed.

[ph00tbag]

I read about the loudness war a couple years back, and learning about that definitely shaped my development as a producer. A quick glance through my post history will likely reveal that I'm very opposed to over-compression. I really feel this way even when it comes to EDM. Quite frankly, if a DJ wants to ruin the dynamic contrast of my stuff, I'll let that be his call. I refuse to do that kind of stuff for them. I make my kicks peak, and that's the furthest I'll go.

[the4thImpulse]

I read about the loudness war a couple years back, and learning about that definitely shaped my development as a producer. A quick glance through my post history will likely reveal that I'm very opposed to over-compression. I really feel this way even when it comes to EDM. Quite frankly, if a DJ wants to ruin the dynamic contrast of my stuff, I'll let that be his call. I refuse to do that kind of stuff for them. I make my kicks peak, and that's the furthest I'll go.

I don't want to sound mean or hateful in anyway but honestly as a DJ you track would really have to be impressive for me to even consider buying it and that's not at all exaggerating on my part. I have not bought a track that hasn't been compressed to the point of being on par with everything else and I have heard plenty and some were even catchy but because they lack that mastering compression they won't fit into my live set. EDM has never been about dynamics; 'electronic dance music' is all about catchy loops and rhythms that you move your body too. If you want dynamics and electronic music you are in the minority and will find it much easier to play/make experimental/orchestral synth heavy techno music (think Jean-Michel Jarre) rather skrillex inspired dubstep.

[ph00tbag]

Well, not to sound mean right back, but if loudness is more important to you than the actual music, then I really don't feel an obligation to appeal to you. I happen to be of the (very strongly held) opinion that it's not my job to make sure the dj's stuff is all the same loudness. In fact, it's his job. That gets on a whole other tangent about what it should mean to be a dj, but I don't like restricting my own work based on what a dj feels it should work like.

My stuff is all free to download anyway if anyone doesn't want to pay for it.

[the4thImpulse]

Well, not to sound mean right back, but if loudness is more important to you than the actual music, then I really don't feel an obligation to appeal to you. I happen to be of the (very strongly held) opinion that it's not my job to make sure the dj's stuff is all the same loudness. In fact, it's his job. That gets on a whole other tangent about what it should mean to be a dj, but I don't like restricting my own work based on what a dj feels it should work like.

My stuff is all free to download anyway if anyone doesn't want to pay for it.

(I am only talking about EDM here in this thread, my opinion on other genres may differ)

Don't twist my words and make it look like I don't care about quality. I listen to a lot of music with either or a combination of poor mixing/mastering/content in the search for the few great tracks to play live. I go through roughly 1200 songs every other weekend like this and usually end buying no more than 15. Everyone of those songs has been greatly compressed and their production quality is top notch because I go through the crap to find them and the ones that aren't compressed just don't compare.

No one is making you appeal to the DJ but if your making electronic music then you are missing out by not appealing to them (don;t hate me for my opinion), I am not saying to sell out to them but be aware that they are the key here. They buy your music, they play your music in front of crowds, eventually those crowds find your name and follow you and this all cascades into your fame. If you don't want their help that's your choice.

You are wrong in saying its the DJs job to 'fix' the music to be more applicable to him/her (again I'm not saying its your job either). Their only job is to play music and more often then not they get to choose what they wish to play. A song that isn't compressed sounds much different the one that is and that makes mixing much more difficult then it needs to be (because everyone else compresses their music).

By all means don't create music to appeal to the DJ, make it for yourself because that's whats important here but understand that compression is the way of the modern industry and choosing to avoid it like the plague is rather, in a way, foolish. There are ways to keep dynamics and have you music sit with all the rest.

[Fimbulin]

And then there's orchestra. o_O