Let's Talk About Form Again

[prettiestPony]

This was kinda raised in an earlier thread, but maybe the way the thread developed (or simply how it started) disinclined more people to participate.

Let me ask a few general questions about composition structure to the forum at large.

Do you "map out" the form of a piece at any point during its creation? I don't necessarily mean drawing a diagram, I just mean, do you make some conscious plan about roughly when various musical events will happen, how the intensity of a track will build, climax, fall, and when new sections will be introduced?

Regardless of whether you do consciously have a map of sorts, how do you end up organizing your tracks in terms of sections and development? How do you think about it in relation to whatever genre your music is closest to being an example of? Do you think about "verse" sections and "chorus" sections, even if it's instrumental music?

[Ed Viper]

I didn't used to plan anything, I just kinda jumped in and went. These days, I am working much more on actually planning my songs and where they go, instead of just diving right in.

It definitely takes more time, but the finished product usually sounds a lot better.

[natsukashi]

no, structure is for fagets I just mash keys and sound happens :s

[bartekko]

1.) is it in 128 BPM?
2a.) If yes, add intros and outros so it's club-friendly
2b.) If no, go crazy
3.) ???
4.) profit

[colortwelve]

For the song I've been working on for the past day or so, I randomly decided to sketch out a fairly strict outline of how it would go (granted, the vocalist I'm making it for had his own ideas on track length), and for some reason it's been a lot easier making something when I go into it at least having a general structure down - I guess because it gives me time to focus on the important things while I'm actually in front of my DAW, like sound design and actually writing the damn thing

Aside: I happen to be somewhat pleased with how this current track's turning out, and again, it's probably because I now get to spend all of my time working on the song itself.

[Seven]

Oh, this thread could be helpful - also looking into the older one.

I personally can't make anything without knowing where I'm going with it. Writing a chorus, which later turns out better as a verse, drives me crazy - because I wanted it to be a chorus, and nothing else. I make music spontaneously, and can't say I plan in beforehoof. I plan as I go.

Often, I find myself finishing a chorus, verse and intro - and then just copying the segments over and putting some textbook transitions inbetween. It usually turns out horrible that way.

[Sai]

I can sometimes get going with a piece without having anything to go on by just making crap up as I go, but I like to have at least one section to start with that I can build up.
And I usually find it hard not to think in terms of "verse"/"chorus" sections, no matter what I'm doing. (Are there separate terms for those in instrumental music...? I think everything just becomes a "refrain" when there are no words or something like that...)

Also, in the last topic I saw this:

If you like, I can write up some more thoughts about the non-harmonic devices that pop/electronic music uses to demarcate sections when I get some time later.

If you still feel like it, I'd be interested in seeing how much of this I can understand what you've got to say on this.

[XXDarkShadow79XX]

1.) is it in 128 BPM?
2a.) If yes, add intros and outros so it's club-friendly
2b.) If no, go crazy
3.) ???
4.) profit

GAAAHH I HATE 128 BPM! WHY CAN'T IT JUST BE 130?

[Trillionage]

I mentally try to have an idea of how i want it to sound. If i have a keyboard or a guitar nearby, I play and try to make the melody. Once i have an idea i work on it in Sibelius or Fl...The only problem is that i never think of the ending. It's just loops since i make background music or transcriptions.

[bartekko]

1.) is it in 128 BPM?
2a.) If yes, add intros and outros so it's club-friendly
2b.) If no, go crazy
3.) ???
4.) profit

GAAAHH I HATE 128 BPM! WHY CAN'T IT JUST BE 130?

Because in 128BPM, one minute is exactly 32 bars

[Kopachris]

1.) is it in 128 BPM?
2a.) If yes, add intros and outros so it's club-friendly
2b.) If no, go crazy
3.) ???
4.) profit

GAAAHH I HATE 128 BPM! WHY CAN'T IT JUST BE 130?

Because in 128BPM, one minute is exactly 32 bars

Which is just enough space for four 8-bar themes or two 16-bar themes. Mostly, 8-bar periods (antecedent/consequent) are the most common grouping structure in music. 32 bars is a great number.

Hey, does anyone use other theme types in their music? Sentence? Compound (16-bar) periods? Hybrid themes? Small binary? Small ternary?

[senntenial]

lol have you guys heard my songs? They're like 3 mashed into one. It's horrible.

[Kagetori]

1- 320 BPM
2- Make chords with no genre in mind at all
3- Make multiple melodies that go with the chords n' stuff plus harmonies or whatever
4- ???subconcious???
5- Add extra stuff to compliment the main stuff
6- No mastering whatsoever

lol have you guys heard my songs? They're like 3 mashed into one. It's horrible.

I could make like 10 songs mashed into 1 and make the plain arrangement sound good.
EDIT- Actually, that would just sound like a medley.

[MorteMcAdaver]

On piano, I randomly start playing something until a scene/setting/character pops into my head, and I just go from there. I sometimes let people tell me what kind of thing they're picturing as I'm writing. Having a lot of fun doing that with an independent video game about ghosts that I'm working on right now!

With guitar, it's almost strictly "this sounds cool, and so does this, and here's how I can tie them together and eventually back to one another to create a "poppy" structure."

At times, I delve deeply into the fantasy around which I am building a song. As an example, I will show you Reaping Requiem from Sorrowseed. After being struck with some very tragic news about my mother, I sat down and wrote this on piano (and then later added guitar) in a single night. The story followed in the Dread Sylvan Summonings (disc 1 of the Extinction Prophecies album) is that of the Reaping Willow laying waste to humanity. In my anger and sadness, I just took myself through the wrathful and woeful process of mankind's final extinction at the hands of the Willow, her powers of nature, the vengeful Fey, and the elements themselves. In honor of my mother not being long for the world, I added a solemn and respectful dirge at the end, both signifying the Willow's blissful passing at ridding the world of the disease of mankind, and also alluding to my mother with the line "This guardian can finally fade away."

http://soundcloud.com/mortemcadaver/reaping-requiem-1

In terms of structure/form, this is a song that I wrote almost purely out of emotion.

(vocals by Bonnie Miller and Lilith Astaroth, by the way)

[MorteMcAdaver]

Oh, and sometimes I just scrap together a song from leftover parts that I randomly wrote and create a melodic flesh abomination.

[prettiestPony]

Interesting responses so far!

(Are there separate terms for those in instrumental music...? I think everything just becomes a "refrain" when there are no words or something like that...)

Hmm, in jazz, the chorus part is either called the "chorus" or often the "head". The "verse" sections are "solo sections" (or just "solos"), because, indeed, that's where the musicians solo. I'm having trouble recalling other terms for instrumental music, though, besides refrain. In classical music, rondos have refrains separated by "episodes" or "digressions", I suppose. Similar to fugues, where you have "middle entries", in which the main theme (the "subject") returns, kinda like a chorus/refrain; and the middle entries are separated by "episodes", which act kinda like verses.

I suppose one big difference between the episode in classical forms and the verse in mainstream music is that episodes are typically quite different from each other, whereas pop music verses usually differ only in lyrical content, with only slight melodic variation.

If you still feel like it, I'd be interested in seeing how much of this I can understand what you've got to say on this.

What's this, someone's asking me to blather on more about something in a long-winded fashion? Sure, I'll see if I can come up with something.

[Kopachris]

Interesting responses so far!

(Are there separate terms for those in instrumental music...? I think everything just becomes a "refrain" when there are no words or something like that...)

Hmm, in jazz, the chorus part is either called the "chorus" or often the "head". The "verse" sections are "solo sections" (or just "solos"), because, indeed, that's where the musicians solo. I'm having trouble recalling other terms for instrumental music, though, besides refrain. In classical music, rondos have refrains separated by "episodes" or "digressions", I suppose. Similar to fugues, where you have "middle entries", in which the main theme (the "subject") returns, kinda like a chorus/refrain; and the middle entries are separated by "episodes", which act kinda like verses.

I suppose one big difference between the episode in classical forms and the verse in mainstream music is that episodes are typically quite different from each other, whereas pop music verses usually differ only in lyrical content, with only slight melodic variation.

In classical form, different sections are usually identified by letter: section A, section B, section A' (A-prime, which indicates an alternate or modified version of section A), etc. A few specific forms name their sections, though (such as the fugue with it's exposition, middle entries, and final entries). Classical form is extremely hierarchical, though, so each section is usually split into smaller bits. Another thing to note is that classical form is mostly based on harmony, rather than just melody (melody is important, just not as important). For example, ternary form (ABA or ABA') could use the same motives in each section, but the B section must have contrasting harmony from the A section. I could go into way more detail, but I wouldn't be very eloquent. If you're really interested in it, I'd suggest reading Classical Form by William Caplin. Hugely insightful book.

[Scherzando]

Interesting responses so far!

(Are there separate terms for those in instrumental music...? I think everything just becomes a "refrain" when there are no words or something like that...)

Hmm, in jazz, the chorus part is either called the "chorus" or often the "head". The "verse" sections are "solo sections" (or just "solos"), because, indeed, that's where the musicians solo. I'm having trouble recalling other terms for instrumental music, though, besides refrain. In classical music, rondos have refrains separated by "episodes" or "digressions", I suppose. Similar to fugues, where you have "middle entries", in which the main theme (the "subject") returns, kinda like a chorus/refrain; and the middle entries are separated by "episodes", which act kinda like verses.

I suppose one big difference between the episode in classical forms and the verse in mainstream music is that episodes are typically quite different from each other, whereas pop music verses usually differ only in lyrical content, with only slight melodic variation.

In classical form, different sections are usually identified by letter: section A, section B, section A' (A-prime, which indicates an alternate or modified version of section A), etc. A few specific forms name their sections, though (such as the fugue with it's exposition, middle entries, and final entries). Classical form is extremely hierarchical, though, so each section is usually split into smaller bits. Another thing to note is that classical form is mostly based on harmony, rather than just melody (melody is important, just not as important). For example, ternary form (ABA or ABA') could use the same motives in each section, but the B section must have contrasting harmony from the A section. I could go into way more detail, but I wouldn't be very eloquent. If you're really interested in it, I'd suggest reading Classical Form by William Caplin. Hugely insightful book.

And writing in sonata form just makes me want to flip my piano.

[XXDarkShadow79XX]

GAAAHH I HATE 128 BPM! WHY CAN'T IT JUST BE 130?

Because in 128BPM, one minute is exactly 32 bars

Which is just enough space for four 8-bar themes or two 16-bar themes. Mostly, 8-bar periods (antecedent/consequent) are the most common grouping structure in music. 32 bars is a great number.

Hey, does anyone use other theme types in their music? Sentence? Compound (16-bar) periods? Hybrid themes? Small binary? Small ternary?

Humph. I dislike organization in music anyway. The really original tracks aren't perfectly structured IMO. I don't care how long each section is in my music, as long as its not too annoying, long, or short I'm okay.

[XXDarkShadow79XX]

Pretty much my only rule is that you can't play the same thing four times in a row without it getting boring. But that's something for another thread.

P.S. OK, maybe that's a pretty terrible rule, and i dont live by it, but I use it a lot in intros and breakdowns so the listener doesn't get too bored. It also helps for drops to keep them interesting. IDK. But I you feel a section of your song is too repetitive, just change it up every four (Depending on what you're working with) measures.

[prettiestPony]

In classical form, different sections are usually identified by letter: section A, section B, section A' (A-prime, which indicates an alternate or modified version of section A), etc. A few specific forms name their sections, though (such as the fugue with it's exposition, middle entries, and final entries).

Well, yes, but I was looking for a different term than letter names. A more general analog to the popular music "verse". (Arguably the sections in strophic form fit that description, but strophic form doesn't feature an alternation between verse and chorus.)

Another thing to note is that classical form is mostly based on harmony, rather than just melody (melody is important, just not as important). For example, ternary form (ABA or ABA') could use the same motives in each section, but the B section must have contrasting harmony from the A section. I could go into way more detail, but I wouldn't be very eloquent.

I'm not sure if you're directing this specifically at me or if it's a contribution to the thread in general; but if it's the former, believe me, I'm well aware of harmonic differences between the sections of classical forms.

That said, it has been a while since I've studied any of this, so thank you for the book recommendation.

The really original tracks aren't perfectly structured IMO.

Could you list some examples of tracks like that? I'd be curious to see how they compare to more structured music.

[Kopachris]

In classical form, different sections are usually identified by letter: section A, section B, section A' (A-prime, which indicates an alternate or modified version of section A), etc. A few specific forms name their sections, though (such as the fugue with it's exposition, middle entries, and final entries).

Well, yes, but I was looking for a different term than letter names. A more general analog to the popular music "verse". (Arguably the sections in strophic form fit that description, but strophic form doesn't feature an alternation between verse and chorus.)

Doesn't really exist. A few sections could be named based on their function--introduction, coda, exposition, development, recapitulation--but that doesn't cover everything. It really depends on the overall form. Rondo has refrain and episode, sonata has exposition, development, and recapitulation, but binary and ternary just have "section A" and "section B." There's no general term other than "section."

Another thing to note is that classical form is mostly based on harmony, rather than just melody (melody is important, just not as important). For example, ternary form (ABA or ABA') could use the same motives in each section, but the B section must have contrasting harmony from the A section. I could go into way more detail, but I wouldn't be very eloquent.

I'm not sure if you're directing this specifically at me or if it's a contribution to the thread in general; but if it's the former, believe me, I'm well aware of harmonic differences between the sections of classical forms.

Just contributing in general.

[Kagetori]

I don't believe or support "proper forms" of music or any kind of art in general. Sounds boring.
I think education in art is just stoopid.

"If you want something done right, ya' gotta do it yourself!" Especially learning arts.

[Kopachris]

I think education in art is just stoopid.

Wait, what? I'm not sure if you're trying to be facetious, there.

Also, regarding not liking form, I think I should point out that the piece in your signature is a fairly typical ternary form with an introduction section. Quite a common form in any genre of music. I think that you'll find that certain forms are used for a reason, and stumbling around in the dark will lead you to some of the most common forms without you realizing it.

Or I could be the victim of Poe's Law.

[Kagetori]

I think education in art is just stoopid.

Wait, what? I'm not sure if you're trying to be facetious, there.

Also, regarding not liking form, I think I should point out that the piece in your signature is a fairly typical ternary form with an introduction section. Quite a common form in any genre of music. I think that you'll find that certain forms are used for a reason, and stumbling around in the dark will lead you to some of the most common forms without you realizing it.

Or I could be the victim of Poe's Law.

I say it like that because I suck at explaining things and it probably sounds stupid coming from me, but what I say, I still believe and stand for in some way. I know it's impossible to completely go against form in music because it can be defined by so many things. What I mean is like... how anyone who writes and totally goes by the whole "Hero's Journey" crap taught in school/uses it as a checklist should seriously just quit IMO.

Actually, this-

"Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend."

Bruce Lee, bitches.