Okay so I'm practically addicted to the piano. I have a keyboard at home which I'm nearly always playing, and if I see one in a shop or something I have to have a go on it.
The problem is, I often find that, when I'm not playing riffs from rock bands, I'm just mashing random chords and nothing's really coming out of it. Not very often do I hit on a chord progression/melody that really resonates and makes me think "hey that'd make a good tune". In fact, my best ideas for songs come late at night when I'm trying to sleep and a random tune is going through my head, which I then have to jot down on a notepad and then see about writing in my composer the next day.
So yeah, when it actually comes to playing the piano, I find it difficult to come up with something that sounds... cool. I know about the different keys and modes and whatnot (harmonic minor is definitely my favorite ) so I don't have too much trouble coming up with anything melodic. Just something that I feel genuine emotion from. Maybe it's just because I know what I'm going to play before I play it - or the fact that I'm the one playing it just detaches me from it?
Here's a video of me improvising for a few minutes just to see what I could come up with.
Please forgive my sloppy playing. Let me know what you think if you want.
Does anybody else feel the same way/have some advice for me? It's all much appreciated.
Do lots of studying. Study chords, scales and how scales relate to the chords and vice versa. Study chord progressions. Play a lot and try out new things. When you're new to a subject, try playing slow first and building up speed later. Also, listen to a lot of music and listen to it well. Look up sheet music or play music you like by ear. By studying what other players play, you discover new possibilities and also discover what makes their songs work. Also study different styles. If you want to play pop music, study a little bit of jazz anyway. And vice versa, when you want to make jazz music, study pop music anyway. Learn from different styles (influences) and then distill your own style.
Read some books. Get several piano instruction books, or sheet music books for piano. Also read stuff on music theory, where you'll learn about chord functions.
Also, when you're trying to think of something yourself, try having an idea of what you want first, and then try and play that. It doesn't matter if it ends up being something completely different. You can start anywhere. Melody-first, harmony-first and lyrics-first are all equally correct, just choose the one that's right for you.
The most important bits are that you play consistently. Try to play and practise every day. And as you play, listen to what you're playing very carefully. This might sound like something obvious, but just do it! And about the emotion thing... For now, don't focus on it too much. It might sound weird, but if you focus too much on wanting to evoke an emotion you usually only come up with corny things or nothing at all.
Know that emotion by itself doesn't make anything happen. It makes you feel a certain way, sure, but emotion just doesn't translate into music very well. Emotion by itself has very little musical meaning. What does happen however, is that certain music evokes emotion (so, the other way around). Look for those moments, and study them well.
This all might sound like a lot of work to do, but that's because that's what it is. You need to realize that this is not something you'll learn in a couple of weeks. It will take a lot of time, and it needs your commitment.
Since you seem to love the piano, that's a great start! Look for things to study of all of these things that I mentioned that seem relevant to you. Just don't stop playing, and more importantly don't stop listening
Musician who likes to just play any instrument, really DAW: FL Studio & Reaper Past achievements Seeds of Kindness I: Spring is Coming Seeds of Kindness II: Woodwind
Here is my tip: I don't know anything about chords or modes. Well, maybe a little. But I don't let that kind of information get in the way of me wanting to create bueatfiul music. I cast aside anything technical and just play and play. Often i'll try to play for hours. But my method is to do my improving in the DAW it's self, so that if I come up with something amazing, I can capture it and start working on a new song.
Flutterwhat wrote:Here is my tip: I don't know anything about chords or modes. Well, maybe a little. But I don't let that kind of information get in the way of me wanting to create bueatfiul music. I cast aside anything technical and just play and play. Often i'll try to play for hours. But my method is to do my improving in the DAW it's self, so that if I come up with something amazing, I can capture it and start working on a new song.
if you learn music theory, you don't have to do this and your songs will be more artistically "correct" so you're not playing unfitting notes or referring to weird chord changes that alienate your listeners.
You need to learn your instrument, or you'll spend so much unnecessary time trying to figure out whether or not something sounds good.
I have no intention of learning music theory. I learned grammar by typing on internet forums and talking with people online. After a while, I started to learn, on my own, what was correct and what was different based on how it looked. It is a similar case with music. If it sounds weird or out of place, I won't use it in a song. Most of the time, the way i play never becomes "Incorrect" or "Weird".
Comforming to a set of rules would defeat the purpose of making the music I would want to make. my music comes from the heart and is purely what I want to do.
Flutterwhat wrote:I don't think i'll be spending as much time here as I thought.
don't let me discourage you. I can be a real jerk sometimes but I'm honest to my point, especially when expressing my concern.
It's only a suggestion, and it' up to you whether or not to listen to it.
*apologetic hug*
d'aw thank you. Honestly i'll end up taking Music theory classes in college, but that will most likely be far down the road. Or not at all depending if I have a long Naval career. but yes, thanks for the apologetic hug<3
Flutterwhat wrote:Here is my tip: I don't know anything about chords or modes. Well, maybe a little. But I don't let that kind of information get in the way of me wanting to create bueatfiul music. I cast aside anything technical and just play and play. Often i'll try to play for hours. But my method is to do my improving in the DAW it's self, so that if I come up with something amazing, I can capture it and start working on a new song.
if you learn music theory, you don't have to do this and your songs will be more artistically "correct" so you're not playing unfitting notes or referring to weird chord changes that alienate your listeners.
You need to learn your instrument, or you'll spend so much unnecessary time trying to figure out whether or not something sounds good.
Not that this is what this thread is about, or anything, but just thought I'd throw in my two cents...
I love music theory. It's tons of fun to learn, apply, and really, my thirst to learn more of it never ends. I also agree that every musician, ever should put a good amount of time into learning theory.
However...I really don't think it's a good idea to learn something the technical, music theory, dictionary-definition way before you actually experience that bit of theory in application. If you hear a dominant chord, a half-diminished chord, a minor-major 7 chord - whatever - before you actually know what makes it tick and what it is, in technical terms, then when you learn it you'll already have a certain emotion, feeling, and overall 'personality' attached to that chord - your own. And I feel that if this is the case, that you thoroughly familiarize yourself with a chord's sound prior to coming to study it and know it technically, that you'll be able to use said chord that much more effectively.
Theory is always there when we're talking music. Everything you do has a technical explanation to it, and if you ask me, that's the beauty of music theory...everything has a reason...but yeah, knowing the reason for something without even knowing what you're asking is something I find kind of silly.
As for being 'correct' - yeah, there are definitely ways to use music theory to make music that sounds correct, conventional, music that works and draws the listener in...but I insist, and always will insist, that while the vast majority of the time (heck, I'll go ahead and say 99%) it's a really good idea to follow the things in music theory that have been said, confirmed, and tried time and time again...I will always believe music is infinite, and there is no reason to limit your own reaches by iron walls - rules. Nor should they be completely disregarded, of course - they should be kept in mind all the time and constantly be used as guidelines...even if you're using them so that you know what you DON'T want to do...
And that's it. Fun.
"[5:49:48 PM] Bass Clopper: I reget getting the 17 inch [5:49:53 PM] Bass Clopper: Harder to fit than the 15 was D:"
Flutterwhat wrote:I don't think i'll be spending as much time here as I thought.
I can understand where you're stance is regarding theory, but perhaps I can explain it a bit better.
Theory isn't about rules, or limiting your creativity. Theory is (like everything else) a tool you can utilize to make your music better.
Think of it as a VST instrument. You can create some great things with one VST, but even if you completely master that one VST, you won't be able to create everything. There's different kinds of oscillators, sound synthesis, and modulation types.
Going back to theory, if you play what sounds good to you, you can create some great tracks, however part of being a musician is expanding your own sound, developing your creativity, etc.
Notice how some bands like Lincoln Park, originally sounded great, but because they stuck with the same kind of style, by the 4th or so album, it begins to get old. Now compare that to bands like Tool, who's own style differs with each album, yet keeps the fundamental sound that is their own.
As for myself, I love tri-tones, but almost to the point of hampering my creativity. If I were to keep composing music according to myself, I'd never break out of that. because anything outside of tri-tone chords starts to sound off to me.
Learning theory is simply about going outside your comfort level. You learn new tricks.
Above all, learning theory saves time. The more you know about theory and what direction to take a song, the less time you spend fumbling around looking for a fitting chord. Less time means quicker song development. Quicker song development means less time burning out your creativity. Less burned out creativity means more liklihood you'll stick with music.
Flutterwhat wrote:I don't think i'll be spending as much time here as I thought.
I can understand where you're stance is regarding theory, but perhaps I can explain it a bit better.
Theory isn't about rules, or limiting your creativity. Theory is (like everything else) a tool you can utilize to make your music better.
Think of it as a VST instrument. You can create some great things with one VST, but even if you completely master that one VST, you won't be able to create everything. There's different kinds of oscillators, sound synthesis, and modulation types.
Going back to theory, if you play what sounds good to you, you can create some great tracks, however part of being a musician is expanding your own sound, developing your creativity, etc.
Notice how some bands like Lincoln Park, originally sounded great, but because they stuck with the same kind of style, by the 4th or so album, it begins to get old. Now compare that to bands like Tool, who's own style differs with each album, yet keeps the fundamental sound that is their own.
As for myself, I love tri-tones, but almost to the point of hampering my creativity. If I were to keep composing music according to myself, I'd never break out of that. because anything outside of tri-tone chords starts to sound off to me.
Learning theory is simply about going outside your comfort level. You learn new tricks.
Above all, learning theory saves time. The more you know about theory and what direction to take a song, the less time you spend fumbling around looking for a fitting chord. Less time means quicker song development. Quicker song development means less time burning out your creativity. Less burned out creativity means more liklihood you'll stick with music.
With all due respect, sir, I don't see how it'll make my workflow any quicker. Im not fumbling around at all. I don't randomly look for chords. these things come natural to me because I've been playing since before I can remember, and the piano is truly like a language to me. I know i'll stick with music, because it isn't something I remember making a choice to do. I'll always be producing music. I realize now that music theory isn't about rules are limits or anything. One day i might learn it, but I do not see the need to investigate as I'm happy with the way I do things now. And my style isn't one that is set in stone, like linking park. It's full of variations, from song to song really. It's sort of settled down, but i'm sure in the near future it will evolve once more.
(Apologies in advance, this has the potential to get a bit mean and nasty) Jimmy, its really obvious you're not putting emotion into your playing because you're not putting the emotion into your playing. It's a problem I feel I have as well, and sympathise.
Theory may not be absolutely necessary, but it will quickly become a limiting factor if you do not know any. Knowing which chords and scales work together is something that you will learn studying theory and while you can also discover this just by experimentation, it's learning why they work is what will really help you expand and move forward.
Theory is an invaluable tool, and there's no reason to reinvent the wheel and try to get by without it. You don't need to learn it all right away, but you will eventually need to learn it or you will reach a plateau.
Oh boy, we talking about music theory and piano improvisation? Oh, no piano improvisation, just music theory? Okay. *sadface.jpg*
Okay, so I will say ONE thing about music theory: it is a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. It's the crowbar that prys open the stubbornly stuck door, it is the lever that unveils the secret behind the curtain. It is NOT the end all, be all to music. If that were the case, all the "good" musicians will only come with Ph. D degrees in musicology and theory. However, to dismiss theory simply as an "academic subject" with no merit to artistic exploration would be to insult a majority of musicians, both contemporary and classical.
Music theory is a tool. Nothing more, nothing less.
Okay, now on to the subject I'm actually excited that somebody brought up: piano improvisation and emotions. *cracks neck*
Jimmy, to be honest, from what I hear in your video, all I hear are chords. Arpeggios and flourishes to chords, yes, but still only chords none the less. Now you could be cheesy and play block chords nice, slow, and easy, and with a bit of dissonance could pass off as lounge music, but I'm sure that's not the only emotion you want to convey.
Let me start with the emotion I love to convey in my improvisations: cheese.
Okay, well, other people call it "soul" or "FEELS", but it's really nothing more than just simple cheesiness in my opinion.
As an example, let me show you one of the more cheesy songs I've heard. It's nothing more than a piano reduction of a Japanese pop song, but you can learn a lot from this.
Now, all that differs between your improvisation and this composition is one thing: melody. Listen: left hand continues with chords, harmonizes rarely. Right hand deals with the melody and its respective harmonization. Here's an exercise to try. Find a chord progression you can't get bored of. The one I often use is I-V-vi-IV (C-G-Am-F, in the key of C), because I can repeat it so often, and there's still so much to improvise on. Let the left hand play arpeggios of the chords, say, one chord each bar. You may have to practice a few times before you can leave your left hand alone with the chords. Now, an important thing to do with the right hand:
Go free.
Okay, okay, I admit, there's more to improvisation than just putting fingers randomly on the keyboard, but really, this is the method I used to learn what works, what doesn't, and how to salvage a botched note or two (or even an entire bar of botched notes... don't worry, it happens). Since your left hand handles the chord, there really isn't a lot of things that can't be played on the right hand. Start out with single note melodies. After you get the hang of it, maybe add third or sixth harmonizations. Go wild! Don't be afraid to touch that dissonance. In fact, I'd argue that you can't get the "emotions" or "FEELS" you want without a significant amount of dissonances.
But really, there is no set rule, which makes improvisation quite a hard skill to practice. You may be able to gain a few tidbits of insight just by listening to piano improvisationists (plugging in a friend of mine, Pony Visation is something you might want to consider putting in the background while you do other things. He does amazing piano improvisations)
And, actually, if you have time, we could set up a Skype session where we take turns improvising themes and motifs, similar to what I did with PonyVisation here:
I do hope you continue piano improvisation, as you'll find that not only is it an amazing ability to have, but also a greatly rewarding one (I can't compose without a little improvisation nowadays).
Last edited by PhillyPu on 26 May 2012 04:22, edited 1 time in total.
Hahaha. I love you guys' ability to lay down the tough love but still be so wonderfully encouraging. :3
/me hugs everybody
Thanks for all the comments so far - I certainly didn't expect my thread to explode overnight.
JoshMono: Thanks man, lovely bit of advice there. I'll certainly dig out some of the theory books we have and have a thorough read-through of 'em. It's something I've been meaning to do for a while anyway.
Flutterwhat: I was in the same boat as you for the longest time. I was so confused by music theory that I still wasn't entirely sure what the difference between a minor and a major key was after I'd done my Music GCSE. (It was a miracle I passed that, to be honest.) I was also convinced that my music was inhibited my lack of knowledge in that field, and while it certainly didn't seem the case at the time, I can't help but look back on some of the stuff I wrote during that era and think how I could redo it so much better.
I can't exactly remember what persuaded me to start learning the theory side of music, but once I did, my eyes were opened to whole new world of potential. Now that I've started listening to lots of highly technical progressive rock and metal, I'm more keen to learn about it than ever.
LunchBagMusic: Are you saying (similar to Flutterwhat) that music theory has no relevance to playing or composing? I suppose as a very analytical person, I would have a tendency to employ my logical side of the brain more than the creative side, especially during something as spontaneous as improvisation.
Despite this, I assure you that emotion I feel towards the music is there - I love music, and I love playing, regardless of what I'm playing. To be honest, I think it might just be a problem with confidence. I do tend to make mistakes under pressure (if my countless failed recording attempts - not to mention the disasters that were my driving lessons a couple of years ago - are anything to go by), so maybe I'm overcompensating by being too logical about the process of improvising. Maybe I'll record another vid of improv and then we'll see how it goes.
Also, apologies, but I disagree with you about sitting. My elevation level has to be just right - if I sit I suddenly find it difficult to move my arms and hands in the way that I've trained them to. (If I wasn't clear in the OP, I taught myself nearly everything about the physical side of playing.) I've stood for about 99.9% of the time I've used a keyboard throughout my life, anyway, so I guess it just suits me better. Unless there's an actual physiological reason that sitting allows for better/more confident playing? Dangit, I'm curious now.
PhillyPu: Thanks a heap, man, this is exactly what I need.
I listened to the whole of that video and - wowzers. You guys rock. I'll check out Ponyvisation's page for some more of that sort of thing, because that's exactly how I want to be able to play. Sounds like you guys have actual grand pianos, though, and I've only got a Yamaha PSR-170.
As LunchBagMusic already pointed out, my problem right now is to do with my overly-logical approach to the creative process, which I now realize is a detriment when it comes to improv - being free is the key. (heh I made a rhymey)
Playing two different things with both hands is something I've been working on, but yeah, there's still quite a few holes in my technique, so I prefer playing one thing with both, or using the accompaniment on my keyboard. However, now that I want to learn how to actually play the piano, improving my prestidigitation is something I'll definitely work towards. Thanks for the advice in that regard.
About dissonance - it's something I've dabbled in, but only basic stuff like adding 2nds to block chords (like G-A-A#-D for G minor) and tritones (which I did a couple of times in the OP's video). I've not really explored dissonance's power as an emotive tool as much as I could have, probably again because of my analytical tendencies. I'll go a bit more lenient on myself on my next improv video and see if it yields any better results.
Flutterwhat: I was in the same boat as you for the longest time. I was so confused by music theory that I still wasn't entirely sure what the difference between a minor and a major key was after I'd done my Music GCSE. (It was a miracle I passed that, to be honest.) I was also convinced that my music was inhibited my lack of knowledge in that field, and while it certainly didn't seem the case at the time, I can't help but look back on some of the stuff I wrote during that era and think how I could redo it so much better.
I can't exactly remember what persuaded me to start learning the theory side of music, but once I did, my eyes were opened to whole new world of potential. Now that I've started listening to lots of highly technical progressive rock and metal, I'm more keen to learn about it than ever.
I actually do know the difference between major and minor. oi. Im just gonna stop.
I'll learn it one day, but not anytime soon. I have the Navy ahead of me before school.
Jimmy wrote: Are you saying (similar to Flutterwhat) that music theory has no relevance to playing or composing?
My goodness no. I use theory in all of my compositions, and its proving to be a massive help right now in trying to plot a harmony.
This sums it up pretty well:
PhillyPu wrote:Music theory is a tool. Nothing more, nothing less.
Jimmy wrote:Unless there's an actual physiological reason that sitting allows for better/more confident playing?
Sitting down is good for a couple of reasons:
1) A lot of the time the keys are going to be at that height (You don't have that problem) 2) It allows for better posture which will give you better tone control and gives you a better sound. (Although, with a keyboard of that quality, its not really a big issue) 3) It's also a psychological thing. Sitting down is an action that I associate with playing. I sit down to the piano, adjust my seat, check the pedals and begin. It puts my subconscious into a playing state: its an action that only I associate with playing.
Walking up to a piano and just standing there is like walking anywhere and just stopping. It's not really going to put you into the "zone".
Of course, your zone is standing.
And it just looks awkward. I guess its a personal preference thing.
NavyBrony wrote:Theory isn't about rules, or limiting your creativity. Theory is (like everything else) a tool you can utilize to make your music better.
I'd like to point this out, because what NavyBrony said there is huge. Perhaps this is the most important thing you can learn about learning theory. A lot of people find theory 'limiting' for some reason, but that's because they approach it as theory being rules set in stone. As if it limits creativity. That is absolutely untrue. Any good music teacher will tell you that there's a ton of theory out there and that you can do whatever you want with it, but to play around with it you need to know the nature of the beast.
Sure, you don't actually have to know a lot theory, but it always helps. Just don't see it as a bunch of rules that you absolutely have to abide. It was never meant to be used that way. Remember, first there was music, then came the science (music theory) to describe it and formulate guidelines to produce either predictable or very unpredictable results. You can go with the theory, or do something completely different. That last thing can be done consistently if you know what the theory is saying.
That's why I not only encourage to learn theory, but also to learn theory that's relevant to you at this time. There's no point in learning stuff that you won't use, or that's just way beyond your current understanding. Start with something that makes you have those 'aha!' moments. It could be something simple like learning the major scale, or discovering what notes make up a major chord. Or noodling using only chord tones (like C E G (B) for Cmaj(7)). As you progress you might find that you want to learn more, and there always is. But maybe you don't, and that's perfectly fine too.
Musician who likes to just play any instrument, really DAW: FL Studio & Reaper Past achievements Seeds of Kindness I: Spring is Coming Seeds of Kindness II: Woodwind
Not strictly piano-improv, this one, but I reckon it turned out to be a lot better nonetheless. The sounds on my new keyboard are kick-arse so that might have something to do with it.
Kyoga wrote:I definitely liked this improvisation from you. while i definitely liked the effects you used here, I feel that you got kind of wrapped up in them during your improvisations, but overall it was very good. The speedy arpeggios had many points in which you went out of scale. I don't know if this was intentional or if you're just going from the core, but overall you're definitely showing improvement.
Keep studying your music theory and practicing in as many weird scales as you possibly can. I would advise you study ALL of the diatonic scales and modes and learn how to interweave them so that you may become more flexible and ready for chord changes.
Good job. I expect to see more from you!
Thanks, dude.
Yeah, sorry about the arpeggios. I think I may have mentioned something about my finger dexterity being a bit crap. (Maybe I shouldn't be cracking my knuckles quite so much.) I know what to play, but my fingers don't quite reach the keys. Will continue to practise and hopefully get to the point where I can do any arpeggio without problems.
Jimmy wrote:Improvisation Part II: Electric Boogaloo
Not strictly piano-improv, this one, but I reckon it turned out to be a lot better nonetheless. The sounds on my new keyboard are kick-arse so that might have something to do with it.
How am I progressing?
You're progressing quite well, this one is a lot better than the previous one. Though like Kyoga said: don't rely too heavily on the effects. It sometimes muddles your melody.
DAW: Logic Pro Studio 9 | VSTs: Komplete 9 Ultimate Piano Improvisations, Electro-orchestral-alternative instrumentals/remixes, drummer Youtube | SoundCloud | tumblr Brony Musician Directory Thanks to Makkon for the avatar
Speaking of which, how does one record a piano/guitar/bassfrenchhornwaitwhat? Is there a certain kind of mic you need, cause my laptop's mic sure doesn't cut it. ;A;
TranquilHooves wrote:Speaking of which, how does one record a piano/guitar/bassfrenchhornwaitwhat? Is there a certain kind of mic you need, cause my laptop's mic sure doesn't cut it. ;A;
DAW: Logic Pro Studio 9 | VSTs: Komplete 9 Ultimate Piano Improvisations, Electro-orchestral-alternative instrumentals/remixes, drummer Youtube | SoundCloud | tumblr Brony Musician Directory Thanks to Makkon for the avatar
) so I don't have too much trouble coming up with anything melodic. Just something that I feel genuine emotion from. Maybe it's just because I know what I'm going to play before I play it - or the fact that I'm the one playing it just detaches me from it?
Dangit, I'm curious now. 
