A rant/argument against software piracy

[Nine Volt]

It does, usually. Not sure if it counts if the music is free already though.

[XXDarkShadow79XX]

I've never seemed to understand why. The artist put their music on youtube for everyone to listen to FOR FREE. Why can't I download a much less lower quality version of it?

I think that if you don't want your music to be free, DON'T MAKE IT FREE and release it somewhere else besides Youtube.

[Nine Volt]

The problem with that is that people post your music on their channels without your permission. Take Cryptex for example. You can find every song on his new album ('Isolated Incidents') on Youtube in high quality, all of them not posted by him. Same with a lot of underground artists (I can think of: Skepsist, Vexare, Omnitica, Poseidon, Axi, Receptor, etc). Plus there's the whole 'Vevo' thing.

[Thyrai]

You need to refute the argument.

It didn't need to be refuted. Copying something is not equivalent to taking something.

Do you honestly think that if it were impossible to pirate software, the demand for software would be unaffected? That's incredibly naive.

I'm certain there would be more demand, but that's speculative. My naivety is based upon a fictional world.

It's wrong in the same way stealing a bike is wrong, even if you come back six months later and pay for it (or return the bike). How long do you wait between pirating and purchasing the software? Does the price drop between that time period? How long is too long? It's too ambiguous.

This boils down to the point I've been making this whole time. Theft is not synonymous with piracy. You can argue that they're close 'til you're blue in the face, but they aren't the same.

Taking a bike is theft. The owner loses his bike.
Piracy is looking at the bike and making a copy of said bike. The owner does not lose his bike.

[XXDarkShadow79XX]

The problem with that is that people post your music on their channels without your permission. Take Cryptex for example. You can find every song on his new album ('Isolated Incidents') on Youtube in high quality, all of them not posted by him. Same with a lot of underground artists (I can think of: Skepsist, Vexare, Omnitica, Poseidon, Axi, Receptor, etc). Plus there's the whole 'Vevo' thing.

I never understood the whole VEVO thing, and it doesn't help that SOME videos are fine on mobile while others aren't. As for the reposting, that can't be avoided. However, reposting does not affect the artists income, nor does it affect the buyer's decisions. It is immoral though, but like I said, virtually unavoidable.

[itroitnyah]

I think that if you don't want your music to be free, DON'T MAKE IT FREE and release it somewhere else besides Youtube.

They release it to youtube to promote themselves. And you also need internet to access youtube, so you would only be able to listen to music from a wifi spot or whatever. Also, youtube music quality is a lot lower than an actual mp3. (yes, the audio quality of a video deteriorates based on the lower quality setting, so at 240p sound will suck, but at 720p it will be a lot better).

[Dr_Dissonance]

This boils down to the point I've been making this whole time. Theft is not synonymous with piracy. You can argue that they're close 'til you're blue in the face, but they aren't the same.

Taking a bike is theft. The owner loses his bike.
Piracy is looking at the bike and making a copy of said bike. The owner does not lose his bike.

Oh lordy...
Did you have a look at that link a while back? Here it is again in case you didn't:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=365466&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

You're right in that copying the bike is technically not stealing as the bike still remains, but did you stop to think it's not the bike you've just 'stolen'?
Read the article put up by Kyle from Nine Volt Audio about his Taiko 2 Library.
He put a heck of a lot of time, effort and work into that library. If you can imagine how long it takes to record big-ass drums, along with 8+ round robin on each hit, that is time consuming.
This company spent a lot of time with this huge investment.
Now, pirating that library means you've stolen all that time, effort and work they did to create it. Your idea of 'copying' remains, but it's not the product persay you've stolen: it's all the work behind the product.
With your bike, if you made a copy of the bike and took it, I'm sure the bike company would be a little peeved you just wasted their hard work making said bike.
For you, if someone copied your music, claimed it as their own and got away with it, I'm sure you'd be a little annoyed that they just threw all your hard work into the dirt for their own gain.

See what I mean? If you want to stick with the 'copying is not stealing', then when you pirate you ARE stealing, because you're stealing the time and effort put into creating the software.

[Foxtrot89]

I kind of (to a lesser extent) agree with Kyoga. I never put a whole heap of thought into it, but I know people like me are in the minority. I honestly think, morally, that there is nothing wrong with what I do. Because of my morals, people who would never have gotten the money have gotten the money. In fact, I'll do some math on things I own. (for better or worse.)

Prominy SC and Vmetal: $600
Various EASTwest Libraries: $1300
Kontakt: $400
Massive: $200
EZ drummer: $179
EZx (3):$270
Nexus: $300 + Crossgrade to 2 for $100
Nexus expansions (19 of them): $1235
Steven Slate Drum Libs: $200
Various Vir2 Libs: $600
FL studio: $300

That's $5684. That's JUST what I can think of off the top of my head. That also doesn't include the thousands of dollars worth of hardware I have; computer, amps, guitars, keyboard, etc. Most of these were stolen at some point. Most of these probably wouldn't have been bought if I didn't spend the time with them that I did. All of it was purchased over a long time, making about a thousand dollars a month, $500 of which goes to bills, the rest gets divvied up for food and other things, as well as furthering my hobby. Thousands of dollars out of my pocket to further a non-paying goal, when I didn't even need to since pirating does exist. Thousands more dollars in the future, out of my pocket. But I'm morally reprehensible?

I get what people are saying though. Namely Kyoga. Most people aren't like me. Most people are content with just going to these places and stealing the software, never a thought to give a buck where a buck is due. People are cruel and selfish, I know this. But pirating doesn't instantly mean you have shitty morals; there is a grey area. I consider myself to have decent morals. I'm also fine with the idea that there be an end to piracy, even if it means I have to suffer for it.

I figure it's worth saying that I've never pirated things from lesser known people/companies. On top of it being morally fucked up, their prices are usually very fair. Basically, larger companies will be fine without my money for 2-3 months, a small developer needs every bit of cash they can get.

As far as music itself, I also purchase everything I have. With music, I don't need to steal to demo it. I've given god knows how much money to well known artists, and folks on band camp that offer it for free. I'll always give an artist money if I enjoy their work.

[Captain Ironhelm]

Just as a note, you don't have to start out with a $500k studio when you're pretty new to musicing.

As I've shown, there's LMMS, and lots of awesome free or cheap alternative software available if you look.

Here's a couple sites that tend to cover a good majority of what's out there:
http://www.kvraudio.com/
in the search options, there's an option for searching only free software, which can make your search easier.

http://www.gearwire.com/

[Foxtrot89]

I've never seemed to understand why. The artist put their music on youtube for everyone to listen to FOR FREE. Why can't I download a much less lower quality version of it?

I think that if you don't want your music to be free, DON'T MAKE IT FREE and release it somewhere else besides Youtube.

Basically, when you put it on youtube it has limitations. Low quality and you can't listen to it in your car, or on a walk to work. Circumventing the limitations is much like cracking software. You're blaming the victim when you say "release it somewhere else then, where I won't be tempted to commit the crime." It's like saying, "well, that girl wouldn't have gotten raped if she just stayed home and not gone to the bar. Shame on her." (Not comparing the severity of each crime here, mind you, just the logic.)

Edit: ALSO! Youtube views, when it comes to bigger artists, are a source of income. When you watch the videos on youtube, they get a little money. So even in that sense, it's just stealing.

[Stars In Autumn]

That's $5684. That's JUST what I can think of off the top of my head. That also doesn't include the thousands of dollars worth of hardware I have; computer, amps, guitars, keyboard, etc. Most of these were stolen at some point. Most of these probably wouldn't have been bought if I didn't spend the time with them that I did. All of it was purchased over a long time, making about a thousand dollars a month, $500 of which goes to bills, the rest gets divvied up for food and other things, as well as furthering my hobby. Thousands of dollars out of my pocket to further a non-paying goal, when I didn't even need to since pirating does exist. Thousands more dollars in the future, out of my pocket. But I'm morally reprehensible?

I get what people are saying though. Namely Kyoga. Most people aren't like me. Most people are content with just going to these places and stealing the software, never a thought to give a buck where a buck is due. People are cruel and selfish, I know this. But pirating doesn't instantly mean you have shitty morals; there is a grey area. I consider myself to have decent morals. I'm also fine with the idea that there be an end to piracy, even if it means I have to suffer for it.

I figure it's worth saying that I've never pirated things from lesser known people/companies. On top of it being morally fucked up, their prices are usually very fair. Basically, larger companies will be fine without my money for 2-3 months, a small developer needs every bit of cash they can get.

As far as music itself, I also purchase everything I have. With music, I don't need to steal to demo it. I've given god knows how much money to well known artists, and folks on band camp that offer it for free. I'll always give an artist money if I enjoy their work.

Did you read Dr. Dissonance's linked article? I don't know why you think it's okay to steal from big companies but not from smaller companies. Companies are made up of people, regardless of size. The fact that the size of a company affects your moral compass worries me. You are rationalizing your actions. To keep using physical theft as an example, it's equivalent to not being okay stealing groceries from mom and pop stores but okay with stealing big screen TVs from Walmart with the reasoning "It's just too expensive, but now I can use the money I saved for food, etc. Plus it's Walmart, it doesn't affect them."

[cloudshovit]

oh hai pirated Sylenth1

The kind of "musicians" I hate the most are those who use pirated stuff but sell their music

[Stars In Autumn]

It didn't need to be refuted. Copying something is not equivalent to taking something.

You agreed with me earlier in agreeing that you are devaluing the software when you pirate. That isn't taking something?

I'm certain there would be more demand, but that's speculative. My naivety is based upon a fictional world.

Well if you are certain that there would be more demand, then why bother with the 2nd statement? That statement means nothing. If you are not naive about the change in demand, then why delude yourself into thinking that software pirated is software that wouldn't of been purchased in the first place. Yes, some might not of purchased it, yet others would. Therefore, pirating hurts sales, therefore it is morally reprehensible.

This boils down to the point I've been making this whole time. Theft is not synonymous with piracy. You can argue that they're close 'til you're blue in the face, but they aren't the same.

Taking a bike is theft. The owner loses his bike.
Piracy is looking at the bike and making a copy of said bike. The owner does not lose his bike.

Yes they're not EXACTLY the same. But they are both wrong. And it's not victim-less. If Dr. Dissonance's linked article doesn't persuade you, I doubt I can. You can keep saying they're different until you're blue in the face, but it won't change the impact of your actions. And just because something might be slightly less wrong doesn't make it right.

[the4thImpulse]

One thing I intentionally left out of the OP was the moral side of the argument. That's not something I to be discussed because it can be interpreted in so many different ways and that could lead to a bigger, off topic, argument.


No one can lay down thousands upon thousands on software alone when they first start a studio. It takes patience like everything else in life. If you take it slow and learn the fundamentals with all the free software out there than you will be far better off when you can start to afford a synth or a DAW. Taking it slow will help you grow as a musician faster, being forced to use only what you got will only help your creativity in the end.

If you want to start a backyard garden you don't go all out and buy every plant imaginable and every single tool labeled for gardening. Your plants will die because you don't know how to properly use those tools and you don't know how to take care of the plants. What you would do is start with only a couple varieties of plants and the basic tools necessary to keep them alive, after you work at it and understand all that it took then you start to expand, slowly. Do the same with music and you will be far better off than pirating all the software you think you need.

[bartekko]

Do the same with music and you will be far better off than pirating all the software you think you need.

Now here's the thing. You assume that when people pirate, they pirate everything they can, which is exactly not what I do. I only use a few pirated things (I have quite a bit of pirated vstis but that is a different story, related to me and my collaborators I never actually worked with, plus me being too lazy to delete what i don't use)
I use Z3TA+2, NI FM8, NI Absynth, Addictive Drums, Fabfilter Twin, Arturia Minimoog V as VSTi and Guitar Rig + SPL plugins as VST's. that is around 10 pieces of software, not counting my DAW.

Your argument is that I don't need all of this software and that I'll be better off learning the one, two most . Well I know I do. Of these things, I know (or I think i know) all the important parts, how they work, how they react to changing their parameters, how to use them. I don't just pirate synths because people say that when i get one I become skrillex. I pirate synths because I only have raised 600 PLN up to date...
...
...that is enough to buy z3ta+2...
/me buys

[Foxtrot89]

That's $5684. That's JUST what I can think of off the top of my head. That also doesn't include the thousands of dollars worth of hardware I have; computer, amps, guitars, keyboard, etc. Most of these were stolen at some point. Most of these probably wouldn't have been bought if I didn't spend the time with them that I did. All of it was purchased over a long time, making about a thousand dollars a month, $500 of which goes to bills, the rest gets divvied up for food and other things, as well as furthering my hobby. Thousands of dollars out of my pocket to further a non-paying goal, when I didn't even need to since pirating does exist. Thousands more dollars in the future, out of my pocket. But I'm morally reprehensible?

I get what people are saying though. Namely Kyoga. Most people aren't like me. Most people are content with just going to these places and stealing the software, never a thought to give a buck where a buck is due. People are cruel and selfish, I know this. But pirating doesn't instantly mean you have shitty morals; there is a grey area. I consider myself to have decent morals. I'm also fine with the idea that there be an end to piracy, even if it means I have to suffer for it.

I figure it's worth saying that I've never pirated things from lesser known people/companies. On top of it being morally fucked up, their prices are usually very fair. Basically, larger companies will be fine without my money for 2-3 months, a small developer needs every bit of cash they can get.

As far as music itself, I also purchase everything I have. With music, I don't need to steal to demo it. I've given god knows how much money to well known artists, and folks on band camp that offer it for free. I'll always give an artist money if I enjoy their work.

Did you read Dr. Dissonance's linked article? I don't know why you think it's okay to steal from big companies but not from smaller companies. Companies are made up of people, regardless of size. The fact that the size of a company affects your moral compass worries me. You are rationalizing your actions. To keep using physical theft as an example, it's equivalent to not being okay stealing groceries from mom and pop stores but okay with stealing big screen TVs from Walmart with the reasoning "It's just too expensive, but now I can use the money I saved for food, etc. Plus it's Walmart, it doesn't affect them."

Way to take one statement way out of context. I said they could afford to wait a few weeks/months to get the money, not that you can never pay them. Unless of course, the software sucks. Then you better believe I'm not spending $400 on a pile of shit. It gets deleted from my hard drive, too. On top of that, smaller companies don't charge a ton of money, so even if the software sucks, you don't get burned on it. One of many examples, Impact Soundworks "Shreddage" is ~$60 as opposed to Prominy's $400 libraries. (shreddage is my favorite library to sketch out tracks with, by the way.) I don't advocate straight up theft from big or small companies. Or did you not read the names of the programs I said I purchased. All big names. I'm glad I put >$5k into peoples pockets. They deserved it.

Fact of the matter is, if you steal $100 from a millionaire, it's not going to effect him nearly as much as stealing $100 from a homeless man. You can't say otherwise and have it remain a true statement. That said, I didn't even say stealing from one is okay but stealing from the other is bad. I said Big Companies have the funds, and enough people buying their stuff, that if I go a couple weeks without paying, it doesn't make a difference. A smaller, poor company might not be there tomorrow, let along next week/month. I download, demo for a month or two, and either purchase or delete the software. In a perfect world, we'd all go the Cockos Reaper way. There is zero wrong with using the honor system like Reaper. It's when you betray the honor system that you become a moral monster.

edit: (sure do like to edit, don't I?) As far as sample libraries go, if I've done business with a company in the past and I've liked their products, I don't have to bother pirating. For instance, I just got an email from toontrack telling me of a sale they're having. I don't need to torrent any more of their software to know that I'll like the product. Probably going to snag up a couple things from them.

[Captain Ironhelm]

Way to take one statement way out of context. I said they could afford to wait a few weeks/months to get the money, not that you can never pay them. Unless of course, the software sucks. Then you better believe I'm not spending $400 on a pile of ****. It gets deleted from my hard drive, too.

I doubt most people that are pirating actually intend to either buy it or delete it after "test driving" it for a week.

Using your car example, you TEST drive the thing. You don't use it for a week to go grocery shopping, to work, visit friends, etc.
Many companies allow a demo version of their software, and usually people on Youtube mess with it so you can see what you're getting into. TEST the thing. Don't use it.

[Foxtrot89]

Way to take one statement way out of context. I said they could afford to wait a few weeks/months to get the money, not that you can never pay them. Unless of course, the software sucks. Then you better believe I'm not spending $400 on a pile of ****. It gets deleted from my hard drive, too.

I doubt most people that are pirating actually intend to either buy it or delete it after "test driving" it for a week.

Using your car example, you TEST drive the thing. You don't use it for a week to go grocery shopping, to work, visit friends, etc.
Many companies allow a demo version of their software, and usually people on Youtube mess with it so you can see what you're getting into. TEST the thing. Don't use it.

I don't think it was me who made the car comparison, and if I did then nuts to me. They're different things. Software won't have wear and tear, I can't wrap it around a tree, it still holds the same exact value if I try it out and then buy it or just outright buy it straight off. Unrestrained hands on testing is the only surefire way to make sure something will be absolutely satisfactory. I can see other people use software all I want, but if I have to fight with the UI, it means nothing.

I do happen to agree that people most likely will violate the honor system, and thus they shouldn't rely on it. The only point I'm trying to make is that Pirating isn't just a black and white thing. Pirating doesn't necessarily make someone a morally bad person, which is what everyone seems to imply. Demo's are usually insanely limited. They give you a demo where the audio outright cuts out after a half hour. I spend more than a half hour designing sounds. Maybe if they gave you a 30 day fully functioned trial or something, pirating wouldn't be needed for me. (some big companies do this, and I don't pirate their products.) Again I admit piracy can, and usually is, selfish and wrong behavior. But what nobody seems to be pointing out is how people like me, who treat it with an honest mindset, are bad people. I'm not taking money out of peoples pockets because I buy it if I like it.

I favor anti-piracy. I'll be bummed if I can't get test out the software hands on, and I'll probably end up buying less software, but I understand why it would be done. For every person who's honest like me, there are 5 others who are greedy and dishonest.

Answer me this, if NI gets my $400 today or next week, what is the honest difference? What makes me a bad person?

[Captain Ironhelm]

my bad sorry about the car thing that was Thyrai

The point is all the $400s of dollars that NI is not getting at all.

[Foxtrot89]

I agree with you completely on that. I understand that there are LOTS of people who outright steal. I just don't like seeing large blanket statements that throw me in with thieves, when I pay thousands of dollars for things I could have, and DID have for free.

[Thyrai]

Yes they're not EXACTLY the same. But they are both wrong. And it's not victim-less. If Dr. Dissonance's linked article doesn't persuade you, I doubt I can. You can keep saying they're different until you're blue in the face, but it won't change the impact of your actions. And just because something might be slightly less wrong doesn't make it right.

I don't have the time to go into the rest of the post right now, but I'll do this one quick:

I'm struggling with your concept of morality. I don't see anything wrong with what I do, because it allows me to preview the full, unrestricted versions of software before I spend a lot of money. It's like that one time I got sued by the pool company for partaking in my friend's pool before buying one of my own.

All I'm saying is that you shouldn't be hurling insults like thief, criminal and illegal downloading around, because those are completely inaccurate statements. They're only relative to the country and laws you live in. Moral arguments are largely subjective.

[the4thImpulse]

All I'm saying is that you shouldn't be hurling insults like thief, criminal and illegal downloading around, because those are completely inaccurate statements. They're only relative to the country and laws you live in. Moral arguments are largely subjective.

As I said before I intentionally left morals out of the OP as not to start an argument like this. If anyone wishes to discuss morals then please start your own thread, I wanted this to encourage people not to turn to pirating and rather wait their turn to acquire the software.

[Nine Volt]

The problem I see with this 'wait your turn' thing is that not all of us are content with using often inferior products when we could be using the same things as a lot of pros use. Yes, I suppose limiting yourself could lead to being more creative, but more often I think it would lead to using the same sounds over and over because of laziness and lack of options. Plus, if every amateur or novice producer was using the same limited variety of synths, the amateur music world would be dominated by basic and uncreative shitty music.

I'm not really fit to talk about this issue though, because I've never used or really had a desire to use any kind of VST. I've used Reason exclusively throughout my entire 'career' as an amateur producer, because it comes with very high quality synths and effects. I only have the VSTs I do because they're so commonly used, and if I wanted to collab then I'd need them, so I got them just in case.

I'm not trying to justify pirating software, just explaining why I did so. As I've said, I'm not proud of it and I plan to buy a legit copy of Reason as soon as I scrape together the money from Christmas and birthday presents. I highly doubt that there are people out there (who don't come from wealthy families) who haven't pirated software before. If you have, then good for you, but that doesn't make you a better musician. Maybe more 'morally upstanding', but not necessarily better.

Sorry if none of this flows well or makes total sense, I'm not too good at writing arguments.

And remember:
:3

[itroitnyah]

Fact of the matter is, if you steal $100 from a millionaire, it's not going to effect him nearly as much as stealing $100 from a homeless man.

First off, large synths companies like NI and reFX have groups of people who design the synths, not just one single person. the workers may not be in any economic crisis or starving on the streets, but they need the money too.

As I said before I intentionally left morals out of the OP as not to start an argument like this. If anyone wishes to discuss morals then please start your own thread, I wanted this to encourage people not to turn to pirating and rather wait their turn to acquire the software.

Haha, I don't think you exactly get that encouraging people not to pirate software has every bit to do with their morals. A person's moral values is what will decide whether they're going to pirate or not.

[the4thImpulse]

Haha, I don't think you exactly get that encouraging people not to pirate software has every bit to do with their morals. A person's moral values is what will decide whether they're going to pirate or not.

I became a better producer when I stopped pirating and only used what I could obtain legally, my friends have experienced the same thing thing and so have people I've known on forums. That's my argument. I not here to argue morals, just to say "Take your time".

The problem I see with this 'wait your turn' thing is that not all of us are content with using often inferior products when we could be using the same things as a lot of pros use. Yes, I suppose limiting yourself could lead to being more creative, but more often I think it would lead to using the same sounds over and over because of laziness and lack of options. Plus, if every amateur or novice producer was using the same limited variety of synths, the amateur music world would be dominated by basic and uncreative shitty music.

If your not content to make music with what you've got then I strongly believe you have the wrong mindset going into music. Music is meant to be enjoyed both by the listener and the producer, if the producer (when they first start out) can't enjoy making music because they don't have the expensive software should learn to be content with what they got. That's what I learned, to be content with all I had. Pirating (in my example in this thread) is the opposite of content, its the mindset that what I have isn't enough so I will 'cheat the system' to get what I want faster then working for what I want.

If you are not willing to work a job to pay for your music software then you don't deserve the software your pirating. If you can't work a job because your too young I'm sorry, that's the way this world is and if you start pirating you will be addicted to it and it will ruin your career at some point.