Implementing Strings/Orchestral into EDM

[Motivfs]

Of recent, I've been trying to jaw out a Liquid Drum & Bass track with Orchestral, typically strings only, however, it feels like it's lacking something, some kind of fullness when the strings are being played, and I'm not too sure what.

I've never implemented Orchestral into any song or project I've done before, so yes, this would be a first. I know for a fact I don't need much as this isn't suppose to be the "Full Orchestra" type of song, but I want to keep it because it add's a type of power and beauty a synth just can't add.

Just to give a bit more info, I am using Edoriol Orchestral and I am using the "Violin Section" & the "Full Strings" section.

If per request someone wants to hear the section to give me an idea, I'll go and pull it out of the project.

Thanks,

~Mots

[itroitnyah]

I was going to suggest layering it, much like adding voices in massive, because that gives it a more full feel, but then I saw that part about how you're using the string quartet. I don't own any orchestral synths, but I'm assuming that means that multiples of the same instrument playing at once.

Try putting multiple copies of the same instrument and slightly detuning each one?

[Motivfs]

https://soundcloud.com/motivfsmusic/wip-orchestral-section

Here it is, or atleast the main section, wow, did soundcloud ever make my cymbals go to shit though...

Also on the fact of detuning, I didn't really think detuning Strings was a good idea but I'll give it a shot.

[Nine Volt]

Multiple instances panned to the sides?
When I use strings in my music (Reason has surprisingly good strings in the factory soundbank) I tend to just throw some tape compression on it and a small bit of chorus. Then I usually layer the factory soundbank's "Lord of the Strings" with some cellos from the factory soundbank.

[Motivfs]

Multiple instances panned to the sides?
When I use strings in my music (Reason has surprisingly good strings in the factory soundbank) I tend to just throw some tape compression on it and a small bit of chorus. Then I usually layer the factory soundbank's "Lord of the Strings" with some cellos from the factory soundbank.

Also forgot to note, I haven't fully mixed them, I mean that could be why, I'm rather lazy of late, it more felt like an instrument was missing though, but yeah, Cello's was something I was definitely considering.

I kind of want it to sound more like this



I'm only looking at the strings though, not the brass.

[itroitnyah]

Also on the fact of detuning, I didn't really think detuning Strings was a good idea but I'll give it a shot.

Well, I don't mean detuning by large amounts like 1 or -1 cents. I mean detuning like by -0.03 or 0.08 cents like you would do in massive if you're creating a super saw or something Although you may have already understood what I meant and I'm saying this pointlessly, lol

[Motivfs]

Yeah, I got what you meant, no need to worry haha.

The Pads I have in the song don't mix well with the Cello at all, I also tried the panning, it's worked to an extent, the chorus effect has as well, sounds definitely fuller than before. I also brought up the Violin Section up an octave.

I think it'd be better if I keep the sections I had at the start unless anyone see's another reason fit as to why I should change it, the effects however have helped make it sound better without drowning out anything too dramatically to not be fixed with an EQ.

Yay for learning Orchestral.

[Lavender_Harmony]

Examples would help, it's easier to hear than to read, especially for me.

[Motivfs]

https://soundcloud.com/motivfsmusic/wip-orchestral-section

Here it is, or atleast the main section, wow, did soundcloud ever make my cymbals go to shit though...

Also on the fact of detuning, I didn't really think detuning Strings was a good idea but I'll give it a shot.

Examples would help, it's easier to hear than to read, especially for me.

Right here Lav. I have a feeling it's not mixed well enough too, still haven't done a true final mixdown though.

[Stars In Autumn]

Make sure you add reverb and delay to the strings. Basically for EDM, you need to take the strings out of place from the concert hall and into your track's sound space.

[Motivfs]

Make sure you add reverb and delay to the strings. Basically for EDM, you need to take the strings out of place from the concert hall and into your track's sound space.

Interesting way of putting it, I'll try to do that, I have alot of frequencies on the low end, so I'm trying to balance it out, unfortunately, the strings are somewhat in the low/mid, so I'll see what I can do.

[Lavender_Harmony]

Ah, didn't see.

Ok, simply, there's too much going on and too little EQing work, from what I can hear. If you cut out all the lows from your string parts and layer in a really soft sub, it would sit a lot better. Strings are a texture, and when applied to EDM, they have a completely different set of rules.

When working on a string arrangement, it's important to utilize all ranges of the instruments, where cellos and basses can reach the lowest end of the violas, you can pull everything up and leave the low end out of the composition until you want that impact, or for full orchestral compositions, you can fill that space with brass or large percussion.

In EDM production, you've got that digital edge, you can lift out that low end, keep the texture and replace it with something synthetic and end up with a clean mix. The same rules still apply though, if not more so. If you have too much in the same range and you limit that frequency range it can be heard in, you'll end up with a bubble of midrange in your mix, and end up scratching your head. I've been there.

As for the rest of the orchestra, it's how you layer it, what you swap out. The orchestra is huge, and knowledge of orchestration is pretty much a must, to some degree, maybe not entirely from a classically trained point of view. Knowing what combinations of instruments works well, the different common textures, making sure that the instruments breathe organically, wind players don't have infinite lung capacity, string players don't have infinite bows, and paying attention to those small details adds a lot of life and realism to your tracks, and can also help save your mix, too, if you know what you're doing.

Make sure you add reverb and delay to the strings. Basically for EDM, you need to take the strings out of place from the concert hall and into your track's sound space.

No, no, no. x_x A lot of string samples have their own natural reverb, and for those that don't, when you're working on EDM, where the mixes need to be tight, and adding reverb and delay haphazardly, especially to something such as strings will just add unnecessary gain to the signal. If you're working with staccato string lines, delay can work if you're very careful with how you EQ it into the mix.

[Motivfs]

Ah, didn't see.

Ok, simply, there's too much going on and too little EQing work, from what I can hear. If you cut out all the lows from your string parts and layer in a really soft sub, it would sit a lot better. Strings are a texture, and when applied to EDM, they have a completely different set of rules.

When working on a string arrangement, it's important to utilize all ranges of the instruments, where cellos and basses can reach the lowest end of the violas, you can pull everything up and leave the low end out of the composition until you want that impact, or for full orchestral compositions, you can fill that space with brass or large percussion.

In EDM production, you've got that digital edge, you can lift out that low end, keep the texture and replace it with something synthetic and end up with a clean mix. The same rules still apply though, if not more so. If you have too much in the same range and you limit that frequency range it can be heard in, you'll end up with a bubble of midrange in your mix, and end up scratching your head. I've been there.

As for the rest of the orchestra, it's how you layer it, what you swap out. The orchestra is huge, and knowledge of orchestration is pretty much a must, to some degree, maybe not entirely from a classically trained point of view. Knowing what combinations of instruments works well, the different common textures, making sure that the instruments breathe organically, wind players don't have infinite lung capacity, string players don't have infinite bows, and paying attention to those small details adds a lot of life and realism to your tracks, and can also help save your mix, too, if you know what you're doing.

I figured I might have to look into how to apply an orchestra properly, but like I said before, it's only a certain part, in this case, the strings is what I'm looking for, I guess it's how I'm going to start learning orchestral myself, and move up from there to the song I posted above.

I had a feeling it had something to do with something in the mix that wasn't working right, so I'll definitely give the sub a go and make it smoother/softer.

I definitely think I have too much in the low end, after raising the strings an octave, it made them more full and lifted them up I noticed, I don't think a Cello would be needed if I already have a strong bass along with subs, considering the Cello sits in the low range, it'd probably just muddy it up.

I'll definitely give it all a go, thanks guys.

[Foxtrot89]

Sounds like it might benefit from widening, like an ADT type deal. Also worth noting is that Cellos and Bass have very different sounds to them. Cellos tend to sit in the low mids, where bass sits in the (surprise surprise) bass/sub bass area. If mud is your concern, then omitting the bass instead of the cello might be a better alternative.

Just a suggestion. I don't work with strings nearly enough, so take this advice with a grain of salt.

[Lavender_Harmony]

Widening should be done in accordance to which section resides in the orchestra, though there is some room for moving them around, as you are mixing them into EDM.

So, do it with panning wile looking at an orchestral layout chart, or ensemble layout. No more than 15% on the extremes I'd reckon.

[Foxtrot89]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be better for something where you're going for authenticity? Like if you're trying to make a believable orchestral piece? If it's more along the lines of a pad/not the main focus, does it really matter if it's panned like a real orchestra, with each section panned appropriately?

I ask because I'm honestly curious. I usually just use some sort of stereo separator and would be willing to do otherwise if it somehow tweaks the mix or something. I haven't even begun to get into legit orchestral stuff, so realism isn't much of a concern to me.

[Lavender_Harmony]

Because it balances everything out very evenly. Using stereo separation or stereo enhancers will only affect the mono compatibility of your mix, and in a hi-fi setup where the speakers are closer together you will experience phase cancellation, as well as it sounding potentially disorientating if you go overboard and the mix is listened to on headphones.

Further enhancement could be obtained by double tracking with different violin section recordings and panning them left right, and so forth, or using mid/side processing.

[Foxtrot89]

Point taken! Yeah, libraries these days tend to come in sections, I never really thought of tracking them like guitar. LASS is my current string library and it has the whole first chair solo, 4 violins a, 4 violins b, and full on 8 violins. Common sense should have figured that out for me, eh?

Thanks for the input all the same. I'm gonna give it a go when I get home to hear the difference, and I'll stop derailing this thread.

[Motivfs]

Eh, you weren't derailing, infact I kind of learnt something, it still lies within the idea of the title.

Back on topic, I actually used panning, but didn't go by the orchestra setup, still, it sounds ALOT cleaner and better, I did try stereo separation beforehand, and it mostly just muddied up the mix and caused cancellation in some of the sounds, so I figured I won't be touching that. I never really touch stereo separation anyways for anything, it's usually all pan/reverb/delay.