Performing Live vs DJ-ing

[Navron]

Alright, as most of you know, I utilize Cubase for my DAW, and will very soon be upgrading to Cubase 6.5. I've spent the past year and a half figuring out how to work the darn thing, and I finally know mostly what everything does.

Of course, as it turns out, there seems to be an exceptionally small number of people who use Cubase live, and that's what this discussion is about.

Now, take in mind, Steinberg has recently released a full set of controls designed exclusively for Cubase, and live playing, which I am looking into as well when I upgrade to 6.5.

The thing that irks me, is how everybody says to use Ableton Live. Yes, I understand that is EXACTLY what Ableton is designed to do, however, most of the time this is coming from people who DJ, to aspiring DJs, and I can completely understand how Ableton would be a better choice in that regard.

But what if I don't want to DJ? What if I just simply want to do a little bit more than simply hitting play on iTunes, such as arranging some parts to be played live on a keyboard, or throwing in some effects here and there? Is it necessary to shell out another $500-1000 to learn a whole new program when the majority of the features in that program are not going to be utilized? I certainly don't think so, and I personally think a lot of people get stuck in this mindset that if they want to do anything live, they HAVE to get Ableton.

So for those with more experience in this area, what are your opinions? Have you seen people play live performances with other DAWs such as Cubase, FL Studio, or Reason?

[Versilaryan]

The biggest advantage of having Ableton is that scene view, and you can only truly make use of it if you shell out for an Ableton controller, too. If you can make do with what you have, I say go for it. Especially if you're mostly going to press play and then play along.

There are advantages to Ableton's scene view, though. You can mix and match parts of your songs or repeat segments on the fly, creating a more dynamic experience. It's not just for DJing, though it does suit that purpose very well.

[the4thImpulse]

As some one who has preformed for two years djing and is currently setting up ableton for live preformances (have been slowly for 5 months now) I feel like I may be able to help you out but I'm not sure I could share everything easily in a thread.

I quote from deadmau5 (taken from his tumblr):

"we all hit play.

its no secret. when it comes to “live” performance of EDM… that’s about the most it seems you can do anyway. It’s not about performance art, its not about talent either (really its not) In fact, let me do you and the rest of the EDM world button pushers who fuckin hate me for telling you how it is, a favor and let you all know how it is.

I think given about 1 hour of instruction, anyone with minimal knowledge of ableton and music tech in general could DO what im doing at a deadmau5 concert. Just like i think ANY DJ in the WORLD who can match a beat can do what “ANYONE else” (not going to mention any names) is doing on their EDM stages too. have a look, then let me explain:

stuff

okay, so heres me, in a big silly mousehead.. twiddlin a knob or somethin… okay so heres how it works…. Somewhere in that mess is a computer, running ableton live… and its spewing out premixed (to a degree) stems of my original producitons, and then a SMPTE feed to front of house (so tell the light / video systems) where im at in the performance… so that all the visuals line up nicely and all the light cues are on and stuff. Now, while thats all goin on… theres a good chunk of Midi data spitting out as well to a handful of synths and crap that are / were used in the actual produciton… which i can tweak *live* and whatnot… but doesnt give me alot of “lookit me im jimi hendrix check out this solo” stuff, because im constrained to work on a set timeline because of the SMPTE. Its a super redundant system, and more importantly its reliable as FUCK! And obviously, ive done the show a couple hundred times easily by now, so the focus over the past few runs with the “cube show” has been more revolved around adding new audio / visual content to keep it current.

so thats my “live” show. and thats as “live” as i can comfortably get it (for now anyway) of course itll evolve, and change up, but im sure a few key principles will always remain the same.

Im just so sick of hearing the “NO!!! IM NOT JUST DOING THIS, I HAVE 6 TABLES UP THERE AND I DO THIS THIS AND THIS” like… honestly. who gives a fuck? i dont have any shame in admitting that for “unhooked” sets.. i just roll up with a laptop and a midi controller and “select” tracks n hit a spacebar. ableton syncs the shit up for me… so no beatmatching skill required. “beatmatching” isnt even a fucking skill as far as im concered anyway. so what, you can count to 4. cool. i had that skill down when i was 3, so dont give me that argument please.

my “skills” and other PRODUCERS skills shine where it needs to shine… in the goddamned studio, and on the fucking releases. thats what counts… because this whole big “edm” is taking over fad, im not going to let it go thinking that people assume theres a guy on a laptop up there producing new original tracks on the fly. becausje none of the “top dj’s in the world” to my knowledge have. myself included.

you know what makes the EDM show the crazy amazing show that it is? you guys do, the fans, the people who came to appreciate the music, the lights, all the other people who came, we just facilitate the means and the pretty lights and the draw of more awesome people like you by our studio productions. which is exactly what it is. But to stand up and say youre doing something special outside of a studio environment, when youre not, just plain fuckin annoys me."

He got some hate for what he wrote so he made a reply to it:

"look ma! no swear words!
I’m going see if i can get through this whole post without using a single explicative.
Well, i suppose in summary, to all i’ve said before, about the faux DJ’ing stuff. The pauly D’s the Paris Hiltons, the play pressers, it’s all part of this same point i’ve been trying to make i guess. EDM has turned into a massively marketed cruise ship, and it’s sinking fast. Not because of ll the passengers, but perhaps there are too many cooks in the kitchen.
I think i might have pissed off more people than i would have liked to in my previous posts and rants. A couple people come to mind, sure my heart broke a little when dave clarke chimed in on my “way too overstretched opinion on everyone and everything” … but i suppose it was a bit like carpet bombing. A few innocent bystanders are bound to get unintentionally hit.
Im a reasonable man, and i know what “controllerism” is. i also know that there are MANY groups and individuals out there who put in serious work and effort to bring a live or CREATIVE element into EDM performance. And if you didnt know that those people were exempt from my argument, then you need to get off the boat too.
Back to my first point, let’s look at this… today, EDM is as commercially viable as coca cola. And what ‘popular’ entity WOULDN’T want to cash in on that? Exactly why were starting to see reality stars and famous for nothing celebrities turn into overnight DJ’s, Majors signing ‘dance music oriented’ artists and producing major events, pre-exisiting pop artists and markets dabbling in the ‘EDM’ market to switch up the style using the same old pop business / marketing models… and this marriage of the two things is only going to make cash, move units, sell tickets and keep it ‘fresh’ coz its allll new to them, and theyre loving it. coz it fuckin works (for now).
All im trying to do, is put on my life jacket and swim as far away from this shipwreck as fast as i can. Because in all honesty, i just wanna be in the studio, making electronic music, and expressing myself by means of sitting in a comfy chair with my cat and my equipment… and of course, occaisionally strap on a foamy mau5head get on the road and press a few buttons for you guys."

I agree with everything he writes there and will add: It doesn't matter what you use, as long as you enjoy using it and you aren't left wanting more out of it. Ableton fills the desires of many live preformers and thats the biggest reason everyone uses it. I have not seen anyone DJ with any other DAW and I don;t know much about cubase but if its any way geared for live preformance (which is what your making it sound like) then give it a shot first before moving on to something else.

If you have any more specfic questions feel free to send me a pm, I don't want to take over this thread.

[Peak Freak]

...

[xadobex]

you mean do something like this?

that would be performing live

[[voodoopony]]

Honestly Deadmau5 was right on most things, especially the play button part, but, like Ratatouille, "anyone can be a cook, but not everyone can be the chef." Sure, anyone can press the play button and twiddle knobs over stems on the fly, but turning it into a performance art is where you shine- hence, DJ.

Referring to play-button-pushers as DJs is a little misleading- there are no discs or jockeys, just a laptop and there you have it. I really won't get in depth as to how you can perform as a DJ, but you can always look at the pioneers to show you how it's done. I'll drop a few links for anyone who's interested.

While Mau5 is busy focusing on pretty lights and distractions from the inevitable fact that he's doing absolutely nothing creative, these guys are making fucking art:
http://youtu.be/LT19GQVVtYY?t=6m14s
http://youtu.be/KeChTwkk5nk?t=1m
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQcyLMa716k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je1QjRbDu1E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi7-aQuwV64

As for this thread's topic, there's really a lot you can do for live performances with your laptop. You CAN press play, and get the same amount of love and respect as the next guy, but if you have pride in what you do, you can always:
-Manipulate stems of your tracks, via Maschine, samplers, or completely in the box, chopping and fading and butchering the track creatively as you go.
-Have a midi keyboard on hand? Load up some presets and play along with your song, be sure to get rid of the original stem. You can always change up the synths a bit to spice it up, and use your DAW's flexibility to even change the patch itself on the fly.
-Beat juggle. Woo

It goes on. While there are plenty of things you can do with what you have to make it a grand performance, it does take time, dedication and practice for you to have the confidence to execute it properly. Frankly, I'm scared as fuck if I were to press the wrong button then game over... but like a guitarist, or drummer, they can't hit wrong notes at the wrong time either. Turn your tools into an instrument.

[Navron]

I pretty much am looking into using the tools I have available, in which the following seem to be features in Cubase that I could theoretically use to perform live:

- Cubase Arranger Track: You set the points of each part of the song, and can organize your playback slider to jump from chorus, verse 1, verse 2, bridge, etc. in any order you specify. I just need to figure out how to control the arranger track via a MIDI controller, so I can control which section plays based on what pad/button I press.
- Loopmash: While geared more for short loop segments, Loopmash does offer different scene pads that can be stored, with various segments and slices. End result would probably be similar to the, "Rebuck," type of mix and mash.
- Quick Controls: 8 assignable parameters to each track that can be attached to any MIDI knob/button.

There's a few others, but overall I won't be able to touch on the full functionality until I get an actual performance level controller.

[Friv]

So for those with more experience in this area, what are your opinions? Have you seen people play live performances with other DAWs such as Cubase, FL Studio, or Reason?

Ableton is worth it for performing live, in my opinion. No other DAW's that I know of have those live capabilities that Ableton has. I don't think there is much you could do for live sets in another DAW besides FL ;it's supposedly getting some live capabilities in the newer updates, but we'll have to see how that pans out. Of course you could shell out a similar amount of money to get a professional CDJ and expensive software, but it seems like you don't want to do that either.

What if I just simply want to do a little bit more than simply hitting play on iTunes, such as arranging some parts to be played live on a keyboard, or throwing in some effects here and there?

Well then you can do that. Although I wouldn't recommend just hitting play on every song; people won't like that. You can try muting the leads in your tracks or whatever you want to play and just create a mix in your daw, so you just get up on stage, press play on the mix, and play keyboard.

Remember, nobody is forcing you to get Ableton and use it, they're just recommending it because it is quite a great piece of software.

[Navron]

And indeed it is...

Guess all I needed was some hands on play with Ableton, which up to this point I haven't done yet.

One Guitar Center trip, and one $850 impulse buy later...

Bought Cubase 6.5
Bought an Akai APC40 (Loved the feel of this thing.)
Soon will be back to buy Ableton Live, but for now, going to get a feel for the controller.

But yeah, 2 of the workers there were showing me all the stuff you can do with Ableton and the APC40 combined, and pretty much almost all of it was in-line for what I was wanting to do.

I think I'll likely do my production in Cubase, and rewire/export segments into Ableton for live performing.

*Edit: It's beautiful!*

[the4thImpulse]

Throwing it out there again, I use the APC40 live and ableton if you have any questions feel free to pm me.

The APC likely comes with a discount for ableton too (33% off if I remember correctly), I am glad you tried it out and now know why ableton is so great for live stuff. Just export the stems of your track (mainly drums, lead, bass, filter sweep stuff seperarted) from cubase and throw them in ableton, they should warp almost perfectly like that and you have a live set!


Also dont be afraid to try out some producing in ableton if you ever get some free time, you may just like it.

[Navron]

Well I guess I'll start off with question 1.

Since I haven't setup the APC in anything yet, I notice it goes into a sort of standby mode, where it cycles through all the button lighting. Is the, "stop all clips," button an unlit button, or does it just not light when it's going through its little standby thing?

Just a small concern for now, because I know things like these with tons of different lights will sometimes arrive with a bad light.

[the4thImpulse]

Well I guess I'll start off with question 1.

Since I haven't setup the APC in anything yet, I notice it goes into a sort of standby mode, where it cycles through all the button lighting. Is the, "stop all clips," button an unlit button, or does it just not light when it's going through its little standby thing?

Just a small concern for now, because I know things like these with tons of different lights will sometimes arrive with a bad light.

When you say stand by mode I take it the power is on but the usb is unplugged and it goes through its little light show automatically.

During that light sequence the 'master' button and 'stop all clips' are not supposed to light up. During this sequence if you push the 'master' button it will light up but the 'stop all clips' will not.

[Navron]

Ug...I had a full Derpy moment.

Triple checked the installation instructions.
Watched and read the setup tutorials.
Did massive amounts of Google searches.

Nothing could tell me why Cubase or Ableton wasn't picking up my controller.

Then I thought, "Maybe it's because it's plugged into the USB 3.0 slot?"

Reached behind the computer and realized the issue was I had not plugged it in at all.