<pony><original><orchestral> Aerial Bond

[Eivel]

I'm a beginner in music composition and my knowledge is almost only practical. So far, I've composed and completed my first orchestral piece.
I've been trying to finish it three times since July 2013, so there may be obvious inconsistency in atmosphere of the song. I would gladly accept any advices. So far I know, that it completely lacks dynamics, but I'm not sure, how I could improve it.
https://soundcloud.com/eivelmusic/aerial-bond

And of course, I'm sorry for my poor english. I'm doing my best to avoid grammar mistakes, but it was always my weakness.

[Callenby]

Hello, Eivel! Welcome to the forum!

Yes, I know exactly how you feel. I was in the same place not terribly long ago. My first piece also took months to complete even though it ended up being very simplistic.

Do you mind me asking how much musical training you have? Also, what samples are you using? It sounds like Kontakt factory but I'm not 100%. Knowing these things can help me give you more specific feedback.

Now, onto your piece.

My main critique would be the repetition. There is far too much of it, particularly at the beginning. Either diversify your composition more or shorten the length of the track because I don't think there's enough to justify 7 minutes. 3 or 4 minutes maybe, but not 7. Some counterpoint would go a long way to keep things more interesting, but that may be too much to ask for at this time.

Next would be timbre. You do change it up some, but not enough for such a long piece. For example, you have the cellos within pretty much the same range throughout the whole thing. Cellos are incredibly versatile instruments and are capable playing in more octaves than just this. Let them stretch and soar! This will also help address the repetition.

You already mentioned the lack of dynamics, but it cannot be stressed enough how important a role they can play. It's a very simple way of adding mood and emotion to your piece. Without it, you get just the same dark and brooding feeling constantly. It's effective for about the first minute, but then it begins to get a tad old.

Lack of dynamics also means that it's difficult to tell what is supposed to be leading at a given moment. For instance, at about 1:00 I'm not sure whether or not I should be listening more to the flute or the cellos. It seems like it would be the cellos, but including a single flute implies that it's supposed to be a solo yet it only plays whole notes here. I don't know if I explained that very well.

I would recommend trying to add at least one more string instrument. There's plenty of stuff in the lower octaves, but the upper ones are quite bare. As I said, cellos are capable of great range, but that doesn't mean you can't contrast them with some violins. In fact, cellos are usually playing as part of an entire string section (which means violins I & II, violas, and basses). Adding these is much more of a challenge but you are rewarded with flexibility and power. Even if you're going for a modern style, with an entire string section you are capable of MUCH more. Yes, you already have a flute, but it's almost completely drowned out. Besides, it drops out after a while. Make more use of that flute! Give it a more complex role, too. One thing that could help is to imagine that actual performers are going to play this for you. Would they be happy with their parts, or would they get noticeably bored after a while?

Finally, it may just be me, but I don't really think that the rhythm you use for the synth meshes well with the rest. Consider changing it so that it blends in more.

I hope that was helpful. I don't mean to be overly critical. You've done well considering it's your first piece. Orchestral music is incredibly demanding and it's always nice to see people brave enough to attempt it. I feel that you still have some ways to go, but don't give up because we're here to help!

[Eivel]

Thank you for so detailed words of advice!
I have no musical training at all. Only what I've learned since I started creating music. The samples I used are from EWQL Symphonic Orchestra. The pads and arps are from - oh so hated - Nexus.

I suspected that there may be too much repetition. I can easily compose a melody, harmony, some counterpoints but then there's a line that's hard to cross for me. How to arrange the rest of the instruments to not repeat used patterns and not bring too much chaos either. I'm in the middle of following this series: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1899. I'm trying to remember as much as I can how he matched instruments in his song, but it's still a bit overwhelming.

I will keep in mind your advice about timbre. I was afraid of overusing the cellos for more that that two octaves. And I also tried using some high violins to fit low cellos, but it kept giving sad mood to the song. Maybe because again - I tried to make patterns of long, lazy notes.

I have also a question. You mentioned that rhythm of the synth doesn't match the song. What about the pads? Do they, in you opinion, match orchestral instruments? I think I'd like to keep combining some electronic synths and orchestral samples, so I want to avoid more common mistakes. But in the future I may try to also avoid using electronic pads and use a bunch of orchestral lows instead.

[Callenby]

You bought from EW with no musical training? That's quite a commitment. Their stuff doesn't come cheap. Anyway, with such an expensive library you should be capable of making some pretty good sounds from it, so definitely read up on their instructions and tutorials. They're often neglected, but are important all the same.

If you're feeling overwhelmed then the best move would be to scale back. Try composing fewer parts, or for a shorter length, or both. I'd say to not worry about completing a full-fledged orchestral piece just yet. Get a good grasp of the basics first. I believe the best way to do that is to practice a lot. Be constantly practicing, even if you're not at all happy with the results.

Looking at existing sheet music is also crucial and you can get a lot for free at IMSLP. You say you have no training at all but hopefully you can still at least read it. There are countless scores to choose from, so if you don't know where to turn first then just go for some of the really well-known stuff (Moonlight Sonata, Vivaldi's Spring, etc.). Even though most of the scores available there do not have the the same electronic twist you're aiming for, looking at the way others composed will also help writing less long, lazy notes.

To answer your question, I thought the pad was fine. Pads are usually just there to fill the soundscape, so it's a little hard to get it "wrong". So long as it's not distracting the listener from anything else, then it should be okay. That being said, you might want to focus on just the orchestral side before delving into electronic stuff (to repeat: scale back). Get comfortable with that before getting into newer, more experimental territory.

[Eivel]

I had searched for other good VST's before, but every other one was concentrated on single instruments (eg. strings) and was as expensive as EW. Symphonic Orchestra looked like it would be useful for years with all instruments I would need for some time.

Also to clarify - I've got no serious musical training, but I was playing on my keyboard as a child. By saying "no musical training at all" I've compared what I was tought (playing some simple songs) to a serious education in music theory. Then it looked like it was nothing.

Thank you for recommending IMSLP. I haven't known this site. Also, I haven't spent much time analysing music sheets. Fortunately, even without proper music education, I learned reading them just for myself. Not to a level to uderstand every operators, but I can easily google it.

Now I'm trying to work on much shorter projects. I hope I'll make a good use of your feedback

[JOrchestration]

If you haven't, I would recommend looking into reading the PLAY manuals that come with EW products as the PLAY engine in FL Studio can cause some major havok when using many instruments. (Eg. Use just one instance of PLAY for each instrument) But, also make sure to make the best of what you have, so that means learning to automate expression, realizing the power of mixing and playing with instrument selection, and just generally sticking to the basics until you have them so ingrained in your thinking that you are automatically able to take care of the broad strokes in order to focus on the finer details.

On the flipside, I would recommend, in the long run, that if you are interested in building your library further, do so with Kontakt based libraries, so look into saving up for Komplete 10 or 11 (whichever is out at the time you need them) because they are an amazing bundle for those of us who are into electronic/orchestral/whatever, and it is a much better value than Kontakt alone. I, personally, went the slightly cheaper road and just got EW Complete Composer's Collection 2 along with my old Komplete 5, which is great because I got a ton of playable single and group VSTs, but it is based in PLAY and it is far more unstable than Kontakt 5, and everyone in the industry builds the best VSTs for Kontakt 5 for that reason.

On to your piece...

I readily agree with Callenby in that the life of the music is within the color and shaping of the voices throughout the piece. There a number of great resources online and in books that cover everything you could ever want to know, but I must also agree that being immersed in great literature is likely your best bet as to how to grow your own style, musical knowledge, and orchestration mindset.(Callenby recommended some of the master's of the late Baroque period and the classical period, but I will also add that you should probably look into the string quartets of Haydn and the musicality and control of notation of Mozart in most any piece because these types of composers lay out the route to musical foundation for you in order to really get a hold of what makes music great so that you can experiment and improve upon it freely) Repetition is definitely something to be used in the right context, but controlled repetition with slight deviations will work wonders only when there is some development and thematic changes (unless, of course, you are working toward piece focused on repetition for its own sake).
Before I go on and on, I will just leave you with the knowledge that you've taken the right first steps in getting critique because it took me far too long to get to that point and it set me back a ways.

Welcome, and I hope to hear more from you!