"Brony Pop Music" and "Following the Herd"

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Re: "Brony Pop Music" and "Following the Herd"

Postby ExoBassTix » 23 Dec 2014 16:03

Freewave wrote:When i compare how many comments i see on fimfics or favs and reblogs of art on tumblr it's a bit saddening to see music seem to be getting weaker support. :sad:

Not sure if I'm nitpicking about unimportant details, but to hook in here, people on FiMFiction are generally more focused on the stuff they browse. On YouTube, and only in extreme popular cases on SoundCloud, people can way more easily just walk by, press like and move on. They also get waaaaaay more followers, or at least, have a bigger potential audience because reading takes longer than listening you know :P
Listening to something can take 3 seconds (for the ass who just scrolls through the song and claims he knows the ins and outs), while reading something can take 6 months (like that dedicated fellow who spends every night passionately reading a particularly enticing and long book).

Books really aren't popular. There are a few who are huge, only two who cross my mind (Tolkien and Rowling).
Music, though, is hugely popular. There are many many people hugely popular for their music. That says enough to me.

But yeah. That's why there are fora like these, where the truly passionate music people can focus on it and help each other out with comments. It's just a fact that we're easily drowned in the vast amount of average people who just click a like (or dislike) and call it a day.
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Re: "Brony Pop Music" and "Following the Herd"

Postby Pulse Wave » 24 Dec 2014 18:02

There's no doubt that there are music producers in this fandom who are only out for the fame, yes. They do it for fame, and they want their fame the quick and easy way. Like, today they click together a brostep tune within one afternoon and spice it up with some "Yay!" and "Louder!" samples, tomorrow they'll have 15,000 hits on YouTube, and the next day they're the next Alex S.

If this weren't the case and remarkably often so, brony musicians such as Silva Hound wouldn't tell aspiring brony musicians to not do it only to become famous, and MandoPony wouldn't have lampshaded it with "Horse Famous".

This is probably one of the reasons why there's a constant influx of always more of the same stuff. One might be tempted to believe that it's impossible to even get noticed making anything different than the "crowd". Fortunately, then up pops a certain Sand Josieph with his "Mother Changeling" which is nothing like any pony tune ever made before. And it becomes popular, also for this exact reason: It's original to the max. At the same time, what fame do those gain who just "follow the herd" as Freewave said? How many of them get VIP tickets for conventions to co-host a musicians' panel or perform live (as live as it gets)?

If you asked me, I'd roughly divide brony musicians into three groups. One are the big names. It's them who are played by the radio stations, it's them who are flown in to conventions at the con team's expenses, and it's them whom everypony™ wants to hear, at least those who have been around for long enough to know them. Surely, many really deserve their big names, and that comes from an old, old-school brony with an even more old-school taste in music who has been making music for longer than most bronies have been living.

The second group are the "followers" who blindly run after everything that happens to be fame and try to copy it if they think they can. They've become a mostly nameless mass. Among them are many many remixers who do remixes because that spares them from making entire songs (I actually draw a line between a remix and a cover) while building upon something that's already highly popular.

The third group are those who want to make or actually make quite original music of whatever kind but stay unnoticed; many of these hang around here. Hardly anypony knows them, and that becomes a problem when major news outlets like EqD seem to pick their choices by names (either a famous musician or the title of a famous piece of music), and if not that, then by genres they think are popular (no matter how many bronies are fed up by now over those ever-increasing masses of dubstep just because dubstep is "fame"). Now you don't have a name (yet), you don't remix popular tracks, and you make music in a genre that doesn't automatically catch everypony's attention. Out of the overwhelming quantity of brony music being released around yours, chances are slim that someone who has got a voice in this fandom discovers yours. The best that you can hope for is a lot of luck like word of mouth, a remix by a big name (can also backfire, see "Discord" and Tombstone's remix — too many bronies think Tombstone made the original) or a collab request from a big name (think EileMonty in need of an instrumental backing yet again and happening to pick you, and when the song is done, bronies might go all, "No idea who that other guy is, but hey, it's Monty, so let's listen to it.").

As already mentioned, another problem with this fandom is the lack of music outlets that actually matter. For every brony following Derpy Hooves News, there must be tens of thousands following Equestria Daily which almost has a monopoly on pony/brony news (although DHN is technically even older). The problem with this near-monopoly is that if EqD happens to be biased (even they only have so many music editors, mind you), this bias will be carried over to the majority of bronies because they don't hear any different opinions. However, you cannot really blame EqD for their popularity; many bronies don't know any alternatives, and many simply go where everypony goes.

At the same time, brony music publishing sites of any kind are in a decay. EqBeats raised hopes but came to a halt because both developers had "moved on" and no-one is willing to take over their work and continue the development. The Everfree staff simply resigned. Who would blame them? On the one hoof, tons of music are produced every week or so, but on the other hoof, it's up to a very few bronies to carry it to the masses and make the musicians known, and there are very few bronies who are willing to work at such online news outlets — and continue to do so for the next years with a massive workload while having next to no viewers because everyone just goes to YouTube and EqD.

Musicians are often not really helping either. The second group, the followers, throw all their stuff on YouTube (and often on YouTube only regardless of quality loss due to the compression) because that's where they get the most hits and wait for EqD to pick them up and raise their hit count even further. Introducing themselves to the BMD is too much an effort for too little outcome as far as fame goes. The same holds true for specialised brony music hosting sites (then again, if EqBeats was rushed by masses of brony musicians, I think chances would be even slimmer that someone would want to take over the workload to maintain and improve the site).

The first group is on YouTube, too, hence their popularity (partly at least). They're pretty much automatically picked by EqD. Many have their music on non-pony audio sites like Bandcamp as well, also because these sites allow them to charge money for their music. They don't have to go to pony-specific sites anymore. So the latter are left with lots of no-names waiting in vain for their breakthrough because those who know sites like EqBeats and Pony.fm are musicians themselves and therefore only a small fraction of the bronydom. The next big shots are scouted on YouTube, leaving brony music sites unmentioned and therefore obscure which in turn leaves the music on them obscure because nopony comes to visit and listen to music on these sites. A vicious circle.

colortwelve wrote:And beyond the simple question of popularity, shallow as it is, there's the feeling that everything's already been done before. Progressive rock? Tarby. Experimental hip-hop? Midwives. Liquid drum and bass? Addictia. Ambient? Kyoga's probably getting to the point where he's gonna be the ambient producer of the brony fandom, especially after that solo EqD post for his Slendermane song.

This has been said more than two years ago already, and brony music is still carrying on.

However, is that really true? Prog rock, for example, has so incredibly many shades that the entire genre can impossibly covered by one sole artist. I mean, how many different prog rock bands were there 40 years ago that coexisted with no major problems? Genesis, Yes, King Crimson, Pink Floyd (actually art rock, but that's nitpicking), Van der Graaf Generator, what-have-you.

We've had quite some alternative pony rock already. Nonetheless, Freewave started ponifying the discography of the Smiths. Go figure.

If two acts play the same genre, they don't necessarily have to sound the same. There's space for more than one musician or band within one genre.

Besides, how about genres that haven't been massively popular in the 2010s? They've mostly been ignored by our musicians. Yes, some genres are simply "old" and sound "old", and when you're in your late teens or early 20s, you want to make music that's as new as possible, and you especially don't want to make the kind of music that your parents or even grandparents made. Yes, some older genres aren't popular with younger generations, some are unknown, others are obscure enough that hardly anypony knows how to make such music in the first place; the dire lack of YouTube tutorials makes things worse. And yes, the older the genre, the smaller the chance that it can be made in a DAW with softsynths only without having to be able to play at least one musical instrument by hand (and owning it in the first place) and/or knowing one's way around music theory.

This, by the way, is why I'm still waiting in vain for more pony music for standard and especially latin dances. We don't have any latin music in this fandom, full stop, regardless of the variety of the "latin" and "ballroom dancing" super-genres. (And no, one cannot dance to epic orchestral battle themes. And yes, there's more than waltz.)

I could go on forever. We barely have any reggae (and this although turning existing songs into reggae has been a musical "fun sport" ever since the 80s), and I don't think we have any ska (no, adding horns to otherwise straight rock/punk music doesn't make it ska). There are even lots of possibilities to make pony pop music in unheard ways. I'd like to make a pony song that sounds like Stock-Aitken-Waterman just for the hell of it, backlash or not. Pop music extends beyond Katy Perry and LMFAO, y'know, and it has been around for decades (yes, even longer than the 90s).

Speaking of whom, I don't consider stuff like "Pony Rock Anthem", "Don't Mine At Night" or especially "I Am Octavia" remixes. If the former two are remixes, then Weird Al is a remixer, too. I'd consider them covers or, better yet, parodies. "Pony Rock Anthem" was pretty much bound to happen, and Shady's version is the best one to date. "Don't Mine At Night" may seem a bit forced because there is barely any connection between MLP:FiM and Minecraft and because Shady pretty much took over an existing parody and slightly rewrote it to ponify it, but hey, Button Mash has got his own song, and he got it without having to resort to some vintage 8-bit video game music. And "I Am Octavia" is far from a run-of-the-mill remix. It's a complete retool of an electronic dance song into a piano ballad that now sounds nothing like David Guetta anymore.

Evdog wrote:
StevenAD wrote:Resenting a popular artist for being popular is jealousy in its purest form.

^ This.

Zigackly.

Even worse that this happens in a fandom that still keeps on preaching "love and tolerance" like these words were spoken in the show itself, but that should at least teach you about tolerance and friendship.

But no, once a brony musician reaches certain steps in their career (still within the bronydom), in comes the backlash. Look at all the continuing hatred for MandoPony. What for? Popularity? Hey, he's probably among our top 10 best instrumentalists, he's a great singer, and he knows his way around production. Showing off his skills? Seriously, is that showing off? Acoustic music? Blame it on your music preferences. I for one prefer his music to "more of the same" because that's what's popular. Collab with Michelle Creber? Well, so did AcousticBrony, so did BlackGryph0n, so did EileMonty (at least live), and not even the princesses know who'll collab with her in 2015. Relationship with one from the show staff, in particular Sibsy who has been famous for her ponysona Wild Fire for some three years already? That's love. Don't try to understand it. (Bonus points for TheFlashGuy a.k.a. Timsplosion successfully predicting it in a comic.) "Horse Famous"? That's lampshade hanging. Do try to understand it.
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Re: "Brony Pop Music" and "Following the Herd"

Postby JSynth » 25 Dec 2014 22:48

Well this is a loaded post, so I am going to try and break it down a bit.

Pulse Wave wrote:Like, today they click together a brostep tune within one afternoon and spice it up with some "Yay!" and "Louder!" samples, tomorrow they'll have 15,000 hits on YouTube, and the next day they're the next Alex S.


I have never heard of someone making 15k hits for a shitty dubstep song that they slapped together. Maybe it was plausible in 2011, but between much of 2012 and today, the best they can hope for is 1k hits on EQD, if they get on at all. Attention seekers tend to be either fairly new to music or at a low enough quality that they fail to meet MotD standards, which is already low.

Pulse Wave wrote:There are three groups of pony musicians; greater-knowns, lesser-knowns and attention seekers.

I know you didn't actually say that, but I am trying to summarize your point.

This is somewhat of a spectrum, to be honest. There are artists who have their music heard by thousands, yet still aren't considered to be "horse famous". And there are people who are in it for the attention, yet spend a little more time on their music (I was a lot like this in 2013). But a lot of pony musicians do fall into these categories in one form or another.

As already mentioned, another problem with this fandom is the lack of music outlets that actually matter.

This has been said time and time again, and I don't think its going to change anytime soon. As for EqBeats and Pony.fm, the best we can do is host downloads on them. In the rare occasion that I release a pony song that is not tied to an album, I will link to Pony.fm for downloads. The goal, of course, is to bring more attention to the site.

Musicians are often not really helping either. The second group, the followers, throw all their stuff on YouTube (and often on YouTube only regardless of quality loss due to the compression) because that's where they get the most hits and wait for EqD to pick them up and raise their hit count even further.


Frankly, we are always going to have these people, no matter what you do. We just need to find a way to work around them.

The first group is on YouTube, too, hence their popularity (partly at least). They're pretty much automatically picked by EqD. Many have their music on non-pony audio sites like Bandcamp as well, also because these sites allow them to charge money for their music. They don't have to go to pony-specific sites anymore. So the latter are left with lots of no-names waiting in vain for their breakthrough because those who know sites like EqBeats and Pony.fm are musicians themselves and therefore only a small fraction of the bronydom. The next big shots are scouted on YouTube, leaving brony music sites unmentioned and therefore obscure which in turn leaves the music on them obscure because nopony comes to visit and listen to music on these sites. A vicious circle.


I always hate saying this, but if the music side of the fandom is going to ever restore itself, than the greater-knowns have to play a part. The fact is, these guys hold the audience better than any news site or radio station do. More than that, many of the lesser-knowns were inspired by them, and they many of them have lots of experience. I would love to see them on MLR more and have them submit to more compilation albums (better yet, run a compilation album). If we want to restore the community, everyone must take part.

Genres


I wont go through everything you said, but here is my take on genres:
I have come to notice that when a niche genre breaks into the mainstream, the people who seem to succeed the most were the ones who were making it before it became popular. Once the genre is popular, everyone is trying to make it and few succeed in getting noticed. At the same time, there are lots and lots of niche genres out there, so the likely-hood of your genre getting noticed is minimal.
The reason I bring this up is because if you want to get noticed by doing something niche, you have to do it before it becomes popular. Finding the right genre is nearly impossible.

But no, once a brony musician reaches certain steps in their career (still within the bronydom), in comes the backlash. Look at all the continuing hatred for MandoPony. What for? Popularity? Hey, he's probably among our top 10 best instrumentalists, he's a great singer, and he knows his way around production.


This is not unique to the brony fandom at all. In any case, when you become popular, people will hate on you. They don't need a reason to do so, they are just assholes. It is the drawback of being a public figure.
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Re: "Brony Pop Music" and "Following the Herd"

Postby Freewave » 26 Dec 2014 10:01

Pulse Wave wrote:We've had quite some alternative pony rock already. Nonetheless, Freewave started ponifying the discography of the Smiths. Go figure.


To me the whole Maressey project besides being something that started on MLR 2 years ago and by luck and maybe fate only now coming into reality, is a way to look at my favorite music from my past and to channel what i see and feel in the community. Tackling issues i see on mlr everyday (loneliness, doubt, depression, gender and sexual identity), along with shipping (which is addressed in fics and pics but rarely music), and taking the characters to their natural conclusions (As Faust wanted; Rdash joining the Wonderbolts, Rarity getting her own shop outside Ponyville) as a storyline. To really vent some of my frustration of what i don't see the fandom doing (emotional melancholy indie rock), to vent my inner growing pessimism, and to try to have a group project where people who have been overlooked in this community to have a chance to join in and shine. In the end doing something different from what everyone else gathers that small niche of listeners but its what I should have expected. If there's anything this project has taught me it's that even achieving a lot of your goal can still feel like a hatful of hollow sometimes.

JSynth wrote:I always hate saying this, but if the music side of the fandom is going to ever restore itself, than the greater-knowns have to play a part. The fact is, these guys hold the audience better than any news site or radio station do. More than that, many of the lesser-knowns were inspired by them, and they many of them have lots of experience. I would love to see them on MLR more and have them submit to more compilation albums (better yet, run a compilation album). If we want to restore the community, everyone must take part.


This is one of the absolute most disappointing things I've noticed about the community is just how those at the top really don't look at what happens below them. There's a plethera of musicians and events that could have used an ounce of support to make a sizeable difference. A comment here or there, reaching out to give feedback, being a part of an event, and a simple reblog on tumblr could make all the difference. Instead the community is mostly defined by cliques and popularity levels. People reblog only who they know, work with people who are as popular as them, the idea of community service is practically non existent, and there's a growing amount apathy and snobbery. Pony musician blogs are more likely to post cat jokes, Fergusson commentary, and anime than reblog a fellow musician's new album and i find that a shame. FIMM could have had the same amount of subscribers in a month or two doing futa or furry p0rn as it does after over a year of music. There just isn't a support system for music like i expected there could be. There's just a huge disconnect for a community that used to be much more aligned.
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Re: "Brony Pop Music" and "Following the Herd"

Postby ph00tbag » 26 Dec 2014 13:14

It's kind of a problem when FiMM's biggest plug came from a guy who doesn't even make music.

Aside from bad rap, that is.
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Re: "Brony Pop Music" and "Following the Herd"

Postby Pulse Wave » 28 Dec 2014 04:37

JSynth wrote:
Pulse Wave wrote:Like, today they click together a brostep tune within one afternoon and spice it up with some "Yay!" and "Louder!" samples, tomorrow they'll have 15,000 hits on YouTube, and the next day they're the next Alex S.


I have never heard of someone making 15k hits for a shitty dubstep song that they slapped together.

Of course not. Doesn't stop people from trying, though.

JSynth wrote:
The first group is on YouTube, too, hence their popularity (partly at least). They're pretty much automatically picked by EqD. Many have their music on non-pony audio sites like Bandcamp as well, also because these sites allow them to charge money for their music. They don't have to go to pony-specific sites anymore. So the latter are left with lots of no-names waiting in vain for their breakthrough because those who know sites like EqBeats and Pony.fm are musicians themselves and therefore only a small fraction of the bronydom. The next big shots are scouted on YouTube, leaving brony music sites unmentioned and therefore obscure which in turn leaves the music on them obscure because nopony comes to visit and listen to music on these sites. A vicious circle.


I always hate saying this, but if the music side of the fandom is going to ever restore itself, than the greater-knowns have to play a part. The fact is, these guys hold the audience better than any news site or radio station do. More than that, many of the lesser-knowns were inspired by them, and they many of them have lots of experience. I would love to see them on MLR more and have them submit to more compilation albums (better yet, run a compilation album). If we want to restore the community, everyone must take part.

I'm with you.

But I don't think that we'll get any of the big names to MLR anytime soon. Back to MLR in some cases. In fact, as far as I know, most of the more famous musicians don't hang around at pony forums at all and prefer to communicate via Skype.

MLR is a big part of this vicious circle. Some see MLR as a kind of "magic kindergarten" for music rookies who have only just started not with pony music but with music in general — regardless of how many seasoned musicians are here, including some who actually perform at cons (lookin' at you, JayB, my countrystallion). Sure, we do have lots of complete newbs landing here at the very beginning of their musical career, but this seems to shoo away more experienced musicians, let alone those with a name in this fandom except for a few (for example Makkon who also cannot leave because he runs this joint), because they'd hang around with their likes rather than with a stable full of newfoals who beg their big idols to teach them everything but have to learn literally everything from the very basics because they don't know jack about music — including that there is no "zero to Tombstone in 10 minutes". No matter whether or not this will actually happen. So MLR is left with a high density of newbies and almost no big names to advertise it as the place to be for bronies making music. Wash, rinse, repeat.

You can see that in collabs. There are collabs between the really big'uns, there are collabs between lesser-knowns, but there are hardly any collabs between someone really famous and someone without a name — which is a pity because that might make the no-name a lot more well-known (and actually did in the past). It's understandable when seen in a certain light: If you don't have a name, the big names don't know you, and they don't know how good a musician/producer you are, so they might risk ending up collabing with someone who, well, mashes random buttons and twists random knobs, and who is satisfied if it doesn't make their ears bleed. But on the other hoof, even no-names usually already have at least some releases that the big names could check out. And no name doesn't automatically stand for no quality.

I don't really believe that if someone famous collabs with someone less experienced, the famous one's fame will take damage. Yes, it'll be more work for them to improve the less experienced musician's work, but that way, the outcome will sound great as ever, and the less experienced musician will improve on their skills and grow more experienced. Not to mention that such a collab is certain to be an accolade for a no-name, as would be being picked by a singer to make them an instrumental backing (well, that does require some quality from your side) or being covered or remixed by someone popular (as long as the no-name is credited by the cover artist or remixer, of course). But I think that many seasoned and popular musicians in this fandom prefer a lot to collab with someone at their level whom they don't have to teach any basics, and at the same time, they get collab requests by musicians whom they've never heard of before and who they believe just want to piggyback on their big names.

Big names also barely add to compilations anymore, partly because they don't have to, partly because they know that those who make compilations regularly get scolded for filling slots on the compilations with big names instead of giving no-names a chance. I say that a compilation has to find the right mix of artists, but others say that big names don't belong on compilations because they're famous enough already, implying that compilations mostly serve as popularity boosters for no-name musicians. So whatever way you do it, you do it wrong.

JSynth wrote:I have come to notice that when a niche genre breaks into the mainstream, the people who seem to succeed the most were the ones who were making it before it became popular. Once the genre is popular, everyone is trying to make it and few succeed in getting noticed. At the same time, there are lots and lots of niche genres out there, so the likely-hood of your genre getting noticed is minimal.
The reason I bring this up is because if you want to get noticed by doing something niche, you have to do it before it becomes popular. Finding the right genre is nearly impossible.

In my humble opinion, the trick is not to pick a genre because it's currently "fame" and popular. If you make music in a genre that's highly popular but doesn't actually suit you, it'll show, it'll sound forced and not coming naturally. The same goes for picking a genre simply because it's an underused niche that you think you can claim for yourself and become famous that way.

It's always better to make music that you feel comfortable with, music that you like and that you like to make, music that you can relate to, regardless of the genre, for that'll show, too. It might not guarantee you popularity, but nothing does. But at least you're honest to yourself and to your listeners, and the more a genre suits you, no matter what it might be, the better you'll be at playing or producing it. No matter what it might be. If it's hair metal, then rawk awn as if you're going to perform at a con on Sunset Shimmer Boulevard. If it's reggae, then grow some dreadlocks like Hairity and give us dee reggae vibrashuns, mun. (Bonus points if you can toast.) And if it actually happens to be dubstep, bronies might say, "Now that's how dubstep is supposed to sound!"

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Re: "Brony Pop Music" and "Following the Herd"

Postby Freewave » 28 Dec 2014 14:37

Yeah I agree completely that MLR's desertion is one of the biggest factors for the lack of a coherent brony music community. While it was almost a music college at the beginning it has almost a reputation of a kindergarten at this point from most who moved on. I spent over a year trying to see if it was possible to change the tide but it eventually become pointless. Hell even half the mods don't show up here anymore, many aren't active bronies, and that's frankly a shame. :sad:
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Re: "Brony Pop Music" and "Following the Herd"

Postby ExoBassTix » 28 Dec 2014 16:10

I feel like saying "vox populi, vox forum," but I don't know if it does the original sentence bad :P
Still though.
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Re: "Brony Pop Music" and "Following the Herd"

Postby Pulse Wave » 01 Jan 2015 08:31

It's not even like we have a real influx of newfoals. The last full page on the introduction thread took some four months to complete, and most posts came from regulars. Most new members of the last few months haven't posted yet and probably never will. And of those who posted, how many become something like regulars themselves instead of falling silent after very few posts? At that rate, it'll become difficult to get replacement mods who are actually active.

Let alone the next brony musicians who matter.

But it's that what MLR needs, I think. New musicians who matter. A league of musicians who matter enough to give this place, the place they hang around, enough new glory for other musicians to want to hang around here, too. We can't get famous music makers back here, so they have to come from here like they used to, three years ago, and they must not leave MLR behind once they become popular. It isn't like nobody tries, though, I'm not saying that. But the pioneer years when many of today's big names became big are long gone, and the more difficult has it become to get yourself a name as a music maker in this fandom.

This kind of leads us back to the original topic. The easy way to fame in this fandom doesn't exist, no matter what some think it might be.
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No FL Studio, no VSTs. No Skype, no YouTube.

Sounds fly through the night, I follow Vın̈yl Scratch to Pony Wonderland.
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Pulse Wave
 
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Re: "Brony Pop Music" and "Following the Herd"

Postby ExoBassTix » 01 Jan 2015 18:00

There isn't a way to fame at all. Only backdoors that you won't ever notice except when you've already gone through one. Worded differently: fame doesn't start with you; it starts with those who give it to you. Keep on doing your thing, and embrace oppurtunities to do your thing better and the way you feel even better about. You'll notice the fame when you feel like it's good enough for you.
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Collecting dust...

Dieselminded drifter dodging delirium in daunting dreamscapes.
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ExoBassTix
 
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Re: "Brony Pop Music" and "Following the Herd"

Postby NightmareRare » 07 Jan 2015 01:30

Personaly I would love for some more new music to be injected into the fandom, seem like all the people who were big and helped kick up the music side of the fandom are moving on to different things. It's awesome that fandom helped lift them up but I can't help feel a void..
On the other hoof I think these pop remakes are a healthily thing for the MLP fandom I general, while they may lack the impact of original compositions, I feel they will serve as a bridge to bring new people into the fandom and by extension grow the brony culture beyond its current scope.
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" I never fell apart because I guess I never really fell together."
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